D&D 4E Inquiry: How do 4E fans feel about 4E Essentials?

[Jacob Lewis]

I'm hoping that if we wait long enough, 4e will become retro-cool and we'll have a 4e School Revolution (4SR).

Wizards will actually open-source the 4e rules. There will be an explosion of 4SR materials, including stuff like how to create classes / PPs / EDs to allow for maximum customization.

Meanwhile, one of the DDI developers will reveal he kept a copy of the code repo, which Wizards also approves for open sourcing. Hard working 4SR fans clean up the code to make it run on modern frameworks as well as make it much better and more extensible, allowing for the creation of new software tools to go alongside a rewritten character builder and monster builder.

A golden age of 4SR shines its glorious light across the world!

...

Hey, a man can dream.

Speaking to the bartender: "I'll have what he's having..."

 

[Undrave]

I don't disagree with this. But unfortunately, most people couldn't look any further than the mechanics of the game, which is all that mattered for many. It is, after all, still a game. And for many players, the play is more important than the implied narrative.

I dunno if the reason you mention makes sense because, from where I'm standing, the problem with 4e was that it was TOO MUCH of a 'game'. Apparently a lot of D&D paler don't like to be reminded they're playing a game. It breaks the immersion and all that stuff.

 

[Garthanos]

I'm hoping that if we wait long enough, 4e will become retro-cool and we'll have a 4e School Revolution (4SR).

Wizards will actually open-source the 4e rules. There will be an explosion of 4SR materials, including stuff like how to create classes / PPs / EDs to allow for maximum customization.

Meanwhile, one of the DDI developers will reveal he kept a copy of the code repo, which Wizards also approves for open sourcing. Hard working 4SR fans clean up the code to make it run on modern frameworks as well as make it much better and more extensible, allowing for the creation of new software tools to go alongside a rewritten character builder and monster builder.

A golden age of 4SR shines its glorious light across the world!

...

Hey, a man can dream.

There might be something happening.... hmmm let me see.
It was what was being discussed by Ron Edwards and that other guy.

Colvilles been giving plenty of positive advertisement for 4e

 

[cbwjm]

I feel 4e never did that because the classes were the most complex and expansive in any generation.

If 4e had did shared power source pools of powers, then it could do it. Both both AEDU and Essential classes would take up several pages to do such guidance.

Shared power source pools is something I kind of wish 4e had done. If you're a martial class, choose from the martial powers list. Want some magic? Pick up a multiclass feat for an arcane class to choose arcane powers (so really, not much of a change to the initial multiclassing rules).

Then you could have abilities and modifiers lie in the classes so that a fighter hits with a martial power and marks their enemies, a warlord hits with a martial power and grants allies a bonus to hit. You miss out on powers that were enhanced by specific builds, but maybe the class abilities could address that to bring it back in rather than relying on specific powers.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Shared power source pools is something I kind of wish 4e had done. If you're a martial class, choose from the martial powers list. Want some magic? Pick up a multiclass feat for an arcane class to choose arcane powers (so really, not much of a change to the initial multiclassing rules).

Then you could have abilities and modifiers lie in the classes so that a fighter hits with a martial power and marks their enemies, a warlord hits with a martial power and grants allies a bonus to hit. You miss out on powers that were enhanced by specific builds, but maybe the class abilities could address that to bring it back in rather than relying on specific powers.

I'm experimenting with an even less restricted paradigm. Powers have an associated source, but you don't HAVE to be attuned to that source to use the power. You simply have to be attuned to it to drop RIDERS on top of it. That is, you only have riders from your source, and you can't spend power points to enhance an effect (which is basically just a slightly different way of saying "get a daily use") without that attunement. So, a fighter can unleash a really potent "Spend a PP and add a rider to a basic at-will to make it into awesome thingy" and a wizard could still access the basic 'at-will', if they have the right boon, they just can't pump it up. This cuts WAY back on the numbers of powers required, and pretty much provides the equivalent of hybrid/MC. You can always try to become attuned to several power sources if you want, though you only ever get the class features of your actual base class (which generally includes your role-defining riders).

Its an experiment, but I THINK it will work, and basically the result is kind of a bit 'covert', but its VERY close to identical to classic AEDU in effect, except you use power points to get your encounter/daily type effects. The PPs can double as HS and AP too, so you don't really want to just burn them casually. OTOH it does open up the possibility of spamming a specific potent power/rider/enhancement combo somewhat. I guess that is just sort of the price of admission though.

 

[Jacob Lewis]

I dunno if the reason you mention makes sense because, from where I'm standing, the problem with 4e was that it was TOO MUCH of a 'game'. Apparently a lot of D&D paler don't like to be reminded they're playing a game. It breaks the immersion and all that stuff.

I'm not disagreeing with this, either. But I did not mean to imply that it was the only reason. Obviously, different people have different expectations. And sometimes the differences are shared.

When I mention certain mechanics, I am referring to the familiar parts of the game that players expect to see carried over, like Vancian spellcasting and other sacred cows. On whole, the difference in 4th edition was apparent in everything, even its presentation. Everything was presented in color-coded formats like trading cards; powers, magic items, monsters, etc.

 

[Minigiant]

Shared power source pools is something I kind of wish 4e had done. If you're a martial class, choose from the martial powers list. Want some magic? Pick up a multiclass feat for an arcane class to choose arcane powers (so really, not much of a change to the initial multiclassing rules).

Then you could have abilities and modifiers lie in the classes so that a fighter hits with a martial power and marks their enemies, a warlord hits with a martial power and grants allies a bonus to hit. You miss out on powers that were enhanced by specific builds, but maybe the class abilities could address that to bring it back in rather than relying on specific powers.

Personally, if 4e used shared power pools, it woulda helped Essentials feel more organic in it's introduction. Essential classes would feel more entangled within the original classes.

Here is my dream 4e Martial Power Source

Class	Martial At-Will	Martial Encounters	Martial Dailies	Arcane Encounters	Arcane Dailies	Divine Encounters	Divine Dailies	Primal Encounters	Primal Dailies	Shadow Dailies	Psionic Dailies
Fighter	X	X	X
Ranger Hunter	X	X	X
Rogue	X	X	X
Warlord	X	X	X
Alchemist	X			X	X
Assassin	X									X
Berserker	X								X
Blackguard	X
Brawler	X	X									X
Crusader	X						X
Gadgeteer	X	X			X
Knight	X									X
Hunter Ranger	X	X							X
Runepriest	X					X	X
Skald	X							X	X
Slayer	X	X
Thief	X	X

 

[Vaalingrade]

Just give us the powers, some suggested classes and let us do what we want with the toybox.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Shared power source pools is something I kind of wish 4e had done. If you're a martial class, choose from the martial powers list. Want some magic? Pick up a multiclass feat for an arcane class to choose arcane powers (so really, not much of a change to the initial multiclassing rules).

This would be neat. Maybe better, but I think it's not a strictly superior choice to class based. You gain certain flexibility, but you lose some ability to customize to class.

 

[Campbell]

My favorite thing about 4e is how much flavor and flair you get with each class. I like that we have Avengers with powers tuned to them that take advantage of their class features rather Divine striker powers.