D&D General Inherently Evil?

Lyxen

Great Old One
They weren't evil. They weren't even particularly brutal. They were efficient. They did not look at the interloper as food, they looked at them as competition, someone that could be consuming prey that they needed.

They did what they needed to do to stop the drain on their resources, nothing more, nothing less. Had they continued to attack the lone wolf there's a chance one of their pack would have sustained an unnecessary injury. They knew they had incapacitated the threat to their pack and didn't need to expend more resources or take any additional risks. Efficient.

For once, I don't fully agree with you, I have not watched the show, but the OP said "he couldn't defend himself, couldn't even move", so there were no risks. So leaving the other to suffer and die does not seem particularly efficient, it might have survived.

True enough. I was trying to illustrate that the animal world is brutal, but that doesn't mean evil. It might look evil if you insist on putting human sensibilities on it.

Alignment means putting human sensibilities on the table, since the definition is based on a modern human view anyway. Again, it just goes to show that alignment is mostly guidelines, useful ones for playing high fantasy especially in the D&D cosmic setting, but it's only a vague simulation tool, that needs to be adapted to your tables and sensitivities.
 

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Lyxen

Great Old One
I agree completely. Just look at Fall-From-Grace (Dragon #264) or Eludecia the Succubus Paladin, to name a few.

Just pointing out that Fall-from-Grace really hails from Planescape: Torment, which is an incredible game in itself to see how alignment including planar alignment is certainly not a straight-jacket, but can on the contrary be used to fantastic effect in a truly epic story. And the best thing in the game is that the fate of the Nameless One is really at the hand of the player, all choices matter...

And if you want to understand Planescape (best setting ever), and have never played the game, the latest version is much better in terms of graphics and interfaces, no more excuses...
 

Oofta

Legend
For once, I don't fully agree with you,
What! You're dead to me! Dead! ;)

I have not watched the show, but the OP said "he couldn't defend himself, couldn't even move", so there were no risks. So leaving the other to suffer and die does not seem particularly efficient, it might have survived.
I haven't watched it either, but even if the risk was low it was still a risk. That, and they had no interest in eating the lone wolf so killing it was not something they would even consider. Wolves, like most predators, will often start eating a prey animal before it's dead. Quite frequently a prey animal dies because it is being eaten. Predators don't generally understand the concept of mercy when it comes to targets they are attacking. Killing it to put it out of it's misery is not something they can conceive of.

That may be cruel or brutal or evil from our point of view, but nature doesn't care about any of those in most cases. It's concerned with getting the most bang for the buck. The wolves had accomplished what they needed to do. We can label the behavior brutal if we want, but the word implies intent to harm for the sake of causing suffering to me. 🤷‍♂️

Kind of a tangent, but I don't even think D&D's alignment system is really about morality. It's just a shorthand descriptor to inform the DM how a creature is going to react and what it's motivated by. An NPC (or wolves) can be brutal because they feel they have no choice and in many cases still be neutral. Someone that is brutal with the goal of causing suffering because they enjoy causing others pain is evil. The difference is in the motivation behind the brutality.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Yes, as a matter of fact, I can! That's how Language works, you see. You can definitely consider your definition to be the "One True Definition", I can express my belief that it's a broader term which would encompass, say, intelligent aliens if they were ever to come to Earth, and society as a whole decides who is right going forward as one use or the other wins out.
Okay, but you can't expect anyone else to follow your suit. I hereby declare cannibalism to mean eating any living thing!
WotC agrees with me.
They can't change it, either. It takes all/most of society to do that, and it hasn't.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I mean, sure we can. Language is a tool, we use it to perform a function (communicate).

"Cannibalism," as a term with a history, came into being in a world where there was only one sapient species: us. Historically, what the word actually meant was "Carib people." It comes from caníbal, a variant of caribal) because of the mistaken (and, generally, pretty racist) idea that the indigenous people of the Lesser Antilles consumed human flesh. But in any world where you only have one sapient species, the distinction between "person who eats members of their own kind" and "person who eats other sapient creatures" vanishes: all people who eat sapient creatures necessarily eat members of their own kind and vice-versa. It's a degenerate case.

We have no word in English, or indeed in any language to the best of my knowledge, for "eats other sapient creatures," because there's never been a need for one. We generally understand that that part--eating other sapient beings--is the morally relevant problem of cannibalism. That is, while there are other non-moral reasons not to engage in cannibalism (e.g. Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease), the primary problem of cannibalism is that it means eating a person, and (usually) the implication is that the cannibal killed that person specifically so they could eat them. It's sort of like how if you want to refer to a person as failing to show even a shred of compassion for other creatures, the word is "inhuman," which in a strict definition would not apply to elves or dragonborn (because they are, by definition, not human), yet words like this (calling an elf "humane," speaking of a robot's "humanity") are used quite frequently because, again, we've never needed to make a distinction between "any sapient creature showing due compassion for the suffering of other creatures" and "specifically human creatures showing due compassion for the suffering of other creatures."

Under those lights, while it may be a colloquial usage, the very word itself comes from a colloquial usage, so making some kind of hard absolute stance of "this word means THIS thing and absolutely nothing else" is a bit specious. "Cannibal" is the closest term, both in terms of the physical act, and in terms of the moral ramifications of the act. Yes, a new word could be invented, and if it became important enough, I'm pretty sure people would try. Consider, for example, that there was no word at all in Latin for what we now call "cannibal," yet we know that they had a very strong taboo about not eating people! (To the best of my knowledge, the best you could do is a circumlocutive phrase, or simply borrow the Greek word anthropophagos, very literally "man-eater.")

Ironically, Old English did have a native word for "cannibal," but if we were going to follow your linguistic prescriptivism, that word would be wrongly used. Because that word was surprisingly readable to us today: selfæta, which very literally meant "self-eater." But a cannibal doesn't eat himself, he eats creatures like him. It is that sense of "likeness" that this looser meaning of "cannibalism" refers to. Not literally eating creatures of one's same species, but eating creatures of one's same moral kind, that is, sapient ones.
Okay. As soon a society changes the definition through use, it will change. Until then, she(and by her claim WotC) is misusing the term.
 

Steampunkette

Rules Tinkerer and Freelance Writer
Supporter
Okay, but you can't expect anyone else to follow your suit. I hereby declare cannibalism to mean eating any living thing!
You and also most Vegans, in fact! Could take root!
They can't change it, either. It takes all/most of society to do that, and it hasn't.
In truth, it takes two people in a discussion to agree on a definition for a word in the context of that discussion.

But you don't wanna, and I get that. Still how I'll use it, and when asked why I will explain why.
Okay. As soon a society changes the definition through use, it will change. Until then, she(and by her claim WotC) is misusing the term.
Book of Vile Darkness page 10 under Fetishes and Addictions. Just to cite my reference point!

Though I would also like to point out that "Reverse Gravity" misuses both the words "Reverse" and "Gravity" since it doesn't actually reverse gravity, but just makes things float within a specific area (Cylinder).

This is because the words used in the game describe specific things in the game, and isn't exactly representative of real world use.

Which is why expanding cannibalism to the consumption of sapient creatures makes perfect sense, regardless of a specific real world definition.

Though uh... Webster's is kinda... wild.



See, Cannibalism can refer to Cannibalizing so it's Cannibalism to take an important part from one machine and put it into another machine, cannibalizing the first one. And since humans are incredibly complex -biological- machines: Heart Transplants are cannibalism, by the dictionary definition.

Maybe don't get hung up on it... yeah?
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Hahahaha. Fighter as a viable choice.

But seriously, the DM yoinks your character concept because they don't like how you played them is some bullcrap.
Or, the player failed to live up to the trade-offs required by the benefits (character class powers) they chose and are now suffering the consequences.
Perspective, perspective.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
What! You're dead to me! Dead! ;)

:cry: ... ... ... ... ;)

I haven't watched it either, but even if the risk was low it was still a risk. That, and they had no interest in eating the lone wolf so killing it was not something they would even consider. Wolves, like most predators, will often start eating a prey animal before it's dead. Quite frequently a prey animal dies because it is being eaten. Predators don't generally understand the concept of mercy when it comes to targets they are attacking. Killing it to put it out of it's misery is not something they can conceive of.

Mercy killing is a complex subject in any case, I just would have thought that they would make sure that it was dead.

That may be cruel or brutal or evil from our point of view, but nature doesn't care about any of those in most cases. It's concerned with getting the most bang for the buck. The wolves had accomplished what they needed to do. We can label the behavior brutal if we want, but the word implies intent to harm for the sake of causing suffering to me. 🤷‍♂️

Kind of a tangent, but I don't even think D&D's alignment system is really about morality. It's just a shorthand descriptor to inform the DM how a creature is going to react and what it's motivated by. An NPC (or wolves) can be brutal because they feel they have no choice and in many cases still be neutral. Someone that is brutal with the goal of causing suffering because they enjoy causing others pain is evil. The difference is in the motivation behind the brutality.

See the other posts, while I don't disregard the motivation (usually as an aggravating factor, but it can go in the other direction too), for me the act speak for themselves, and committing an evil act even with good intentions is still evil. Case in point, torture is always evil, even if it's torturing an orc in the hope of saving a city. But then, as alignment is not a straight jacket, I'm certainly not going to blame a good character for doing it, people are not entirely consistent anyway, and a good roleplayer will use that in his story and personality, we have all done things that we are not proud of in our lives (after writing this, it does NOT mean that I confess to having tortured someone, OK ;)), what is important is how we dealt with them.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Or, the player failed to live up to the trade-offs required by the benefits (character class powers) they chose and are now suffering the consequences.
Perspective, perspective.
Bad game design can't excuse itself.

Also, some folks are just biding their time to eat another sapient apparently.
 

Lyxen

Great Old One
You and also most Vegans, in fact! Could take root!

But plants are alive too ! Alive, kicking and eating too !

X.jpg


Edit: I really like the small flowers at the base of the "thing", really bucolic. :D
 

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