D&D General Wizards are not rational/scientists

[Blue Orange]

kiloRaistlin? So destroying 1000 worlds? You probably wanted another SI prefix.

As one of the previous advocates of the view stated by the OP, I want to say: that's my interpretation. If you decide wizards in your world are like artists and creatively compose spells or like salesmen and talk the universe into doing what they want, go for it. Magic ain't real after all.

I think the reason this trope keeps coming up is (1) wizards are one of the few classes to use INT as their prime requisite...er, chief stat, and in particular every other caster uses WIS or CHA, the exception being the artificer, which is basically a magical engineer (2) the idea of becoming powerful by studying is appealing to the large bookish portion of the game's fanbase (3) most D&D worlds have magic instead of science, so maybe the magic specialists act like science specialists in the real world.

It's also one of the three oldest classes in the game, so it's built up a lot of lore over the years.

I think one of the big things about 'rationality' is that the 'mad wizard' is essentially the fantasy version of the 'mad scientist', a Faustian figure who's a good way to introduce any new element you want to invent. Want a green monster with five arms and three tentacles? Wizard made it. Want a portal to the alternate fantasy world you want to play in for a session? Wizard made it. The cleric has to do what the god wants, the druid has to be pro-nature, and the warlock's only got what their patron dishes out, so if you want to invent something, it's probably a wizard.

Wizards aren't like real scientists...you never see a wizard spending all their time begging for grant funding. (Wizards having to hire themselves out to patrons to get money for their experiments might be a nice way to drive a plot.)

 

[Umbran]

It's less that the wizard is not rational or scientific.

It's more that the logic of wizard's magic is weird. As if it was designed for beings to not accidentally figure it out or do by happenstance.

Wizards are scientists. It's just that most of it is bonkers, barely relates with each other, and attempting to understand what you do know requires strange actions and habits.

I was coming to note basically the same thing - another way to look at it is that the wizard is perfectly rational - but THE WORLD is not.

 

[Bolares]

I was coming to note basically the same thing - another way to look at it is that the wizard is perfectly rational - but THE WORLD is not.

that can be a reason why the wizard can change the world. Pushing logic down the world's throat.

 

[Umbran]

kiloRaistlin? So destroying 1000 worlds? You probably wanted another SI prefix.

No, units are not usually set based on the largest known measurement. They are usually set by the most common measurement, for ease of use.

So, a Raistlin is a unit of evil, probably where a score of 1 is the evil of the disdain he regularly heaps on Caramon.

 

[Bolares]

No, units are not usually set based on the largest known measurement. They are usually set by the most common measurement, for ease of use.

So, a Raistlin is a unit of evil, probably where a score of 1 is the evil of the disdain he regularly heaps on Caramon.

I am reading the trilogy again and wow the companions are dicks to Raistlin. Sturm is just as bad as raistlin in the first book.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I am reading the trilogy again and wow the companions are dicks to Raistlin. Sturm is just as bad as raistlin in the first book.

I tried re-reading the trilogy again, and wow, the writing was so bad I couldn't.

Either it got worse, or I got better.

(Not joking- I just ... eh, look, there's nothing wrong with serviceable fantasy ... after all, I somehow managed to read several of Gygax's Gord novels back in the day... and the DL novels are practically Booker Prize winners comparatively . But some times you learn that things from the past are best left there. IMO, etc. Everyone has different taste.)

 

[Blue Orange]

(Not joking- I just ... eh, look, there's nothing wrong with serviceable fantasy ... after all, I somehow managed to read several of Gygax's Gord novels back in the day... and the DL novels are practically Booker Prize winners comparatively . But some times you learn that things from the past are best left there. IMO, etc. Everyone has different taste.)

The golden age of fantasy is thirteen.

(I actually read the first one recently and kind of enjoyed it. Not going to claim it's Shakespeare.)

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The golden age of fantasy is thirteen.

Are you trying to say that there might be something appealing, when you're at the point in your life were you start to conceptualize yourself as an adult and begin pushing against boundaries, yet you are still treated like a child and constrained in many ways...

to reading books that often have some sort of fantastical story of a hero who usually follows some kind of Campbell-ian heroes' journey and comes into great powers and kicks major posterior?


......I don't know, Seems like a stretch!

 

[Umbran]

I am reading the trilogy again and wow the companions are dicks to Raistlin. Sturm is just as bad as raistlin in the first book.

So, a while back I re-read Dragons of Autumn Twilight, just to see how it held up. And it came across to me that while they are not nice to him, that's because he has been walking around haughty, disdainful, and rejecting their overtures of connection for years before the actions in the novels begin. Raistlin is filled with self-loathing, and he projects that outwards, to predictable results.

Raistlin is, in the end, a sullen teenager turned up to 11. Teens will identify with Raistlin's stance. However, in an adult, this is toxic behavior. Raistlin's treatment of Caramon is outright emotional abuse. We cannot excuse that by, "Sturm's kind of a dick to me." If you are a passive-aggressive, self-centered abuser, other adults will, and should, treat you badly.

 

[Voadam]

I conceived of wizard arcana theory looking at material components and seeing symbolic logic, but also language dependent symbolic logic such as puns. So the theory would say that some inexplicable material components could be from different cultures or languages where the puns or symbolism make sense in context. Ancient language puns and even other world or extraplanar puns can be a thing that work even though they make no sense in the current cultural and language context.

Thus the Tower of Babel mini ziggurat model as a component for tongues in 1e D&D, even though it is a bible reference.