D&D 5E Idea that will most players will hate, but I think addresses a mechanical issue in game

[payn]

Somebody get off overgeeked's lawn!

 

[Mordhau]

Isn't this the way most games used to do it?

Conceptually I don't have a problem with it but...

Casters are more focused on one ability - if they were multi-ability dependent as well it would even things out somewhat. (Say a different ability score for saving throws and spells known).

Dex is still better, because it covers armour class as well. This wouldn't be a problem if ASIs were removed, so the trade-off was within a range which didn't really change. (I would probably change ASIs to +1 to 3 different ability scores if doing this).

 

[Minigiant]

More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.

Makes for a boring game when PCs have no plot armor and they aren't involved in the plot because they died or wont act because they'll die.

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something extremes on one without a counterbalance creates wacky results something something

 

[overgeeked]

Makes for a boring game when PCs have no plot armor and they aren't involved in the plot because they died or wont act because they'll die.

There’s your problem. Don’t start with a plot in mind. Play to find out what happens. Whatever story emerges from the game as played is the plot. If the players aren’t interested in playing risk-taking adventurers, you shouldn’t be playing a game about risk-taking adventurers.

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something extremes on one without a counterbalance creates wacky results something something

Something something.

 

[Minigiant]

There’s your problem. Don’t start with a plot in mind. Play to find out what happens. Whatever story emerges from the game as played is the plot. If the players aren’t interested in playing risk-taking adventurers, you shouldn’t be playing a game about risk-taking adventurers.

It not about happening a plot in mind. It's there not being a cohesive or coherent story because the characters die off or opt out. So the plot is just "finishing the adventure" like a board game because the PCs can't be involved as more than the most minor of side characters.

The main reason why PCs kept getting tougher is because the excuses to keep a player involved the a game after their PC dies, retires, or quits get more ludicrous over time. This makes player and DM investment wane and causes no shows and cancelled sessions.

For D&D, a game attempting to appeal to many, going too extreme on PC toughness, weapons combat, magic, monster uniqueness etc will cut off large swaths of the types of games it wishes to create and turn away aequal amount of current or potential fans.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

They also find absurd the idea that character death is a natural part of the game.

Just look at how many Reddit threads we get every day with players complaining about their characters getting killed and even more threads with DMs asking for "help" to not TPK their parties with some published module.

Well yeah. Pretty much no invested DM wants a TPK in that situation in anything but the final climactic scene. TPKs are a hassle because they require assembling a completely new party of characters, getting them involved in the plot of the module without them getting the introduction that most modules are designed to start with etc. - And that is only the problems within the game. Players often like bringing their new characters in to an existing party with established members when their previous character died, but can be less interested in building up a new set of character interactions from scratch.

More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.

It is evident that you and Nefermandias have very different experiences of D&D players than many of us. Are either of you cognizant of a middle ground between "antagonistic DM kills characters for fun even though they often die to random chance anyway" and "characters have infinite plot armour"?

There’s your problem. Don’t start with a plot in mind. Play to find out what happens. Whatever story emerges from the game as played is the plot.

Interesting. You're saying that you run your games purely as character-reactive sandboxes? No plot of events NPCs and other elements will happen unless reacting to what the characters do?

 

[Nefermandias]

More’s the pity. Makes for an incredibly boring game when the PCs have infinite plot armor. When combined with the need for all the kewl powers and never failing at anything and never being challenged, it’s a wonder there’s still any game or dice left. Should just be a DM sitting there telling the players how amazing, perfect, and awesome they are. Makes the games where the dice are only used to determine how much the PC’s succeed by make a lot more sense.

"Be a fan of your players" makes me roll my eyes so hard every time I hear that.

 

[Nefermandias]

Makes for a boring game when PCs have no plot armor and they aren't involved in the plot because they died or wont act because they'll die.

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something extremes on one without a counterbalance creates wacky results something something

Death saves and saving throws in general are plot armor enough baked into the system. No need to go out of your way to give them even more.
Besides, sticking to the CR guidelines makes it almost impossible to kill the PCs anyway.

 

[Minigiant]

Death saves and saving throws in general are plot armor enough baked into the system. No need to go out of your way to give them even more.
Besides, sticking to the CR guidelines makes it almost impossible to kill the PCs anyway.

Like I said

Something something the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. something something

Some editions were at one extreme. Some editions were at the other.

I don't think any edition got the plot armor nor weapons ability score dependency in the sweet spot yet.

 

[Vince_Snetterton]

'cause they're invested. Why is that a bad thing??

We're FAR from the time where Bob the Fighter could die and be replaced in 5 seconds by his brother Bob II. Character generation takes a while, story is important to players and all that investment feels wasted if your character just die. Especially if its just because of a single bad roll.

You are making a blanket statement when you say "story is important to players". It is important to some players. Many of us travel with at least 2 chars ready to go in case the 1st one falls 20 feet though a trap door to a floor covered with spikes.