D&D 5E Don't play "stupid" characters. It is ableist.

[pming]

Hiya.

The point is there isn't.

Mocking a character who has certain traits FOR having those traits is normalizing mocking anyone who has those traits. That's the point.

Then I guess we just disagree and I don't get it.

It's a game character. Fictional. Resemblance to the 'real world' is just that...a resemblance. We happily accept poisoning, murder, genocide, arson, theft, and any number of other things that go on in an RPG. Why is "WHOA! You're laughing because that guy is so dumb he can't figure out how to unsheathe a sword before using it. That's just a step too far!" the line some are trying to draw?

You can behead a guy who you feel is "bad", no problem.
...not seen as 'normalizing murder'.

You can murder a dozen guards over a "misunderstanding" and get off with paying a paltry sum of coin... no problem.
...not seen as 'normalizing mass-murder'.

You can set up a secret guild of thieves and assassins that carry out crimes of all sorts for money... no problem.
...not seen as 'normalizing criminal behaviour'.

You laugh at a stupid NPC's antics... NO! NOT ALLOWED!
...seen as 'normalizing the mocking of stupid people'.

So yeah. I guess I don't get it. All of those things are happening in a fictional story, of fictional characters, in fictional worlds. Oh well, I guess I'll continue to play stupid PC's/NPC's as doing stupid things, and we will continue to laugh about the things that come up in game because of it. I guess my friends and I are just "badwrongfun" people. shrug Ok. I can live with that.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Charlaquin]

Hiya.

Then I guess we just disagree and I don't get it.

It's a game character. Fictional. Resemblance to the 'real world' is just that...a resemblance. We happily accept poisoning, murder, genocide, arson, theft, and any number of other things that go on in an RPG. Why is "WHOA! You're laughing because that guy is so dumb he can't figure out how to unsheathe a sword before using it. That's just a step too far!" the line some are trying to draw?

You can behead a guy who you feel is "bad", no problem.
...not seen as 'normalizing murder'.

You can murder a dozen guards over a "misunderstanding" and get off with paying a paltry sum of coin... no problem.
...not seen as 'normalizing mass-murder'.

You can set up a secret guild of thieves and assassins that carry out crimes of all sorts for money... no problem.
...not seen as 'normalizing criminal behaviour'.

You laugh at a stupid NPC's antics... NO! NOT ALLOWED!
...seen as 'normalizing the mocking of stupid people'.

One of these things is not like the others. In the first two cases you aren’t actually killing anyone. In the last case you are actually mocking people for actions you associate with their intellect.

 

[FireLance]

What I find to be somewhat ironic is that the OP, while telling people not to play "stupid" characters, comes across to me as a moralizing paladin, preaching to their fellow party members and issuing commandments about How Things Should Be Done So That You Do Not Become Evil instead of using their presumably high Charisma to gently persuade and lead by example - a type of behaviour that has often been called Lawful "Stupid".

That's all I have to say.

 

[Argyle King]

One of these things is not like the others. In the first two cases you aren’t actually killing anyone. In the last case you are actually mocking people for actions you associate with their intellect.

On some level, I feel like I want to agree.

Though, I'm not sure that I fully understand how hurting the feelings of an imaginary person is seen as worse than taking the life of an imaginary person.

 

[Charlaquin]

On some level, I feel like I want to agree.

Though, I'm not sure that I fully understand how hurting the feelings of an imaginary person is seen as worse than taking the life of an imaginary person.

Because, as has been said repeatedly in this thread, offense is not the problem. The problem is that you’re creating an environment where people who think it’s funny to mock people’s intelligence are comfortable, and people who have had their intelligence mocked probably wouldn’t be.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

One of these things is not like the others. In the first two cases you aren’t actually killing anyone. In the last case you are actually mocking people for actions you associate with their intellect.

They are all the same... not attributing to real people in reality. I think that's where we aren't seeing eye to eye.

In ALL of those cases, I'm not actually doing anything to anyone...because they are all fictional characters. Nothing is being done to anyone in "real life". Killing an NPC in a game, mocking an NPC in a game...same thing. Mocking an NPC for their stupidity, killing an NPC for their murderous actions, stealing from NPC's because you can.... same thing.

Ask yourself this: could I KILL the NPC for doing something stupid in the game? ... ... So that's ok, but mocking them for doing something stupid in the game is a no-no?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Charlaquin]

Hiya!

They are all the same... not attributing to real people in reality. I think that's where we aren't seeing eye to eye.

In ALL of those cases, I'm not actually doing anything to anyone...because they are all fictional characters. Nothing is being done to anyone in "real life". Killing an NPC in a game, mocking an NPC in a game...same thing. Mocking an NPC for their stupidity, killing an NPC for their murderous actions, stealing from NPC's because you can.... same thing.

Ask yourself this: could I KILL the NPC for doing something stupid in the game? ... ... So that's ok, but mocking them for doing something stupid in the game is a no-no?

^_^

Paul L. Ming

You, the real people playing the game, are really saying real words, with your real mouths, that are said by bullies to mock people, and then laughing about it. That you’re saying them about an imaginary person is incidental. What matters is that by actually saying mocking things about people’s intelligence and laughing, you are making the environment a place where bullies feel welcome and victims of bullying do not.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I played a lot of hockey when I was younger. I aslo played football (the sissy kind with the pads) as well as a ton of other sports. I fear that many of the posters here would run screaming from their first practice or the first game, when the trash-talking starts.

(The poster who wrote this has been kicked from the thread, but maybe the response I almost wrote (before that happened) may help explain to @pming what the issue is.)

Yes, I participated in that sort of thing as well...when I was a teenager. I was being one of the guys. And funny (or so I thought). Now with some age and perspective I realize I was being not just juvenile, but hurtful.

At a high school reunion, a classmate reminded me of a particularly awful thing I said about gay men. In English class. I'm not going to repeat exactly what it was I said, because honestly I'm embarrassed now. But I didn't actually believe it. I was, again, just being funny. And, honestly, I had forgotten about it.

But this classmate had not forgotten. Because he was/is...spoiler alert...gay. But in high school he wasn't out of the closet...basically nobody of that age was in those days...so I didn't know that. I didn't even know or suspect there were any gays/ lesbians in my school. (Clueless, huh?). So, yeah, he remembered. And he obviously remembered being hurt. And, man, do I respect him for calling me out for it 20 years later.

Here's the thing, though: what I said wasn't wrong because somebody of the targeted group happened to be present. It was wrong just because being a malicious jerk is wrong. It's wrong to normalize that behavior, regardless of who is present or might be present or definitely is not present.

Not "wrong" in the sense of hurting somebody directly, but...morally degrading. It does nothing to make the world a better place, and might very well make the world a worse place. It's funny (for those who think so) because it taps into some of our ugliest aspects. Getting a laugh from somebody else's weakness is, itself, weakness.

However, because our culture (probably most all/most cultures?) normalizes it, because we grow up with sitcoms and stand-up comedians who do it, it's pretty understandable to forget that it's not ok and sometimes still do it. So I don't condemn people who maybe haven't thought about all this, and sometimes make a joke at the expense of other people. I know I still do it myself, and sometimes don't even notice.

But to actively defend the behavior, to write post after post after post arguing that such juvenile behavior is fine and harmless and how dare you tell me I shouldn't do it....that sort of astounds me.

No, I'm not offended. I'm disgusted.

Sometimes I hate the Internet for what it reveals to me.

 

[Argyle King]

Because, as has been said repeatedly in this thread, offense is not the problem. The problem is that you’re creating an environment where people who think it’s funny to mock people’s intelligence are comfortable, and people who have had their intelligence mocked probably wouldn’t be.

That's starting to sound more like Jack Chic's view of D&D than I'd like.

I 100% agree that mocking disabled people is awful.

I'm not sure that I buy into the mental route this thread is taking to get there.

 

[Charlaquin]

That's starting to sound more like Jack Chic's view of D&D than I'd like.

What is Jack Chic’s view of D&D, and in what way does what I’m saying sound like it?