D&D 5E Charm, the evil spells

[Lanefan]

I had a DM do that to the party once as the adventure hook. We were summoned to take part in an attack for a plot we decided we wanted to stop. We had to figure out who it was, where he was and then go stop him.

Similar - as both player and DM I've been in/run parties that suddenly appeared somewhere as someone else's divine intervention.

 

[Remathilis]

I suspect a lot of this has to do with recent increases of concern around sexual assault, etc. and the back-of-everyone's-head realization that a first-level charm person spell would almost certainly be used in real life by the unscrupulous as a sort of super-powered date-rape drug, not to mention coercing people into marriage and the like. (Though given that magic isn't tied to upper-body strength, it would actually be something of an equalizer between the sexes even as it increased power differentials between spellcasters and nonspellcasters.) People in the real world attempt to manipulate, slander, and even murder romantic rivals, and love potions and charms have been a staple of folklore in many cultures; you don't think people would take unfair advantage of a magic spell that actually worked?

Very few people want to drag those themes into their game. But I think everyone's a lot more aware now that a morally ambiguous enchanter who doesn't think twice about charming shopkeepers into a big discount or kobolds into killing their brethren is quite likely going to use charm person (not to mention modify memory and dominate person!) to enhance their romantic life in very unethical ways. And that's why it's now the 'evil' school. Before, if you read old Dragon mags, it was sometimes thought of as a 'pacifist' alternative to killing the goblins you found in your dungeon.

Disguise self to make yourself look like a romantic partner of another and engage in paramour isn't much different than charm person used for similar purpose. I fail to see where disguise self is any more ethical than charm person. Likewise, I don't see see much daylight between charming a guard to give up the combination to the safe and ripping the numbers straight out of his head with detect thoughts. Or threatening to blow their head off with a lightning bolt I guess.

A lot of schools of magic have some unethical or amoral underpinnings. Charm magic robs consent. Divination removes right to privacy. Summoning and Necromancy bodily autonomy. Illusion is fundamentally betrayal of trust. Fear relies on psychological torture. You can make a serious argument that most of the wizard's repertoire is problematic, if not outright criminal.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Disguise self to make yourself look like a romantic partner of another and engage in paramour

That's literally how King Arthur was conceived. Merlin did the illusion. I always found that super disturbing.

 

[Bill Zebub]

A little late to the game, but my two cents is that a lot of evil…especially real world evil…starts with good intentions, although with a distortionary bias, and then step-by-step leads to something diabolical. Most people think of themselves as the Good Guys, and therefore dubious tactics are justified.

Isn’t it better to use magic to influence somebody to do the right thing…the thing they would be doing anyway if only they had better understanding…than to start a chain of events which will likely lead to unnecessary deaths?

Or so the thinking goes.

Although that sort of thinking leads to greater and greater evil, in an RPG context it’s not capital-E Evil.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

That's literally how King Arthur was conceived. Merlin did the illusion. I always found that super disturbing.

Heraklès as well.

 

[abirdcall]

The Glamour Bard's Enthralling Performance is the best ability to determine whether charm effects are evil.

On the one hand it can be framed as using magic to enhance your performance to make the most captivating and beautiful performance the audience has ever seen. The 'charm' effect is the way the game translates the effect the performance has on the audience.

Alternatively it could be framed as using magics to ensorcell the audience against their will.

Picture a movie. It could go either way depending on the tone of the movie, the themes, and who is doing it and why.

What this means to me is that charm effects can be evil or not depending on how they are themed. Is it usurping someone's will or is it a representation of magic making the character charming?

Tasha's Fey Spirit is another good example. The Mirthful Spirit can charm a creature for 1 minute. All that means is that they cannot attack the summoner and the summoner has advantage to Charisma checks with the target. So, is it mind control magic or does the target just find the Spirit entertaining?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

How about this from Swasbuckler Rogue?

Panache
At 9th level, your charm becomes extraordinarily beguiling. As an action, you can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Wisdom (Insight) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.

If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile to you, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you and can't make opportunity attacks against targets other than you. This effect lasts for 1 minute, until one of your companions attacks the target or affects it with a spell, or until you and the target are more than 60 feet apart.

If you succeed on the check and the creature isn't hostile to you, it is charmed by you for 1 minute. While charmed, it regards you as a friendly acquaintance. This effect ends immediately if you or your companions do anything harmful to it.

It's not even magic!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Disguise self to make yourself look like a romantic partner of another and engage in paramour isn't much different than charm person used for similar purpose. I fail to see where disguise self is any more ethical than charm person. Likewise, I don't see see much daylight between charming a guard to give up the combination to the safe and ripping the numbers straight out of his head with detect thoughts. Or threatening to blow their head off with a lightning bolt I guess.

A lot of schools of magic have some unethical or amoral underpinnings. Charm magic robs consent. Divination removes right to privacy. Summoning and Necromancy bodily autonomy. Illusion is fundamentally betrayal of trust. Fear relies on psychological torture. You can make a serious argument that most of the wizard's repertoire is problematic, if not outright criminal.

Given how many wizards in the source literature are bad guys, this is understandable I think. Magic is not traditionally known as a "good" art.

 

[Remathilis]

Given how many wizards in the source literature are bad guys, this is understandable I think. Magic is not traditionally known as a "good" art.

That's very true. Magic in myth and legend gets up to some downright sketchy shiitake. @Crimson Longinus mentioned Merlin above, but dang near every wizard (Merlin, Gandalf, Dumbledore, Glinda, Elminster, etc.) had a rather uh, loose definition of morality. And that doesn't even touch the downright evil ones!

 

[abirdcall]

How about this from Swasbuckler Rogue?

Panache
At 9th level, your charm becomes extraordinarily beguiling. As an action, you can make a Charisma (Persuasion) check contested by a creature's Wisdom (Insight) check. The creature must be able to hear you, and the two of you must share a language.

If you succeed on the check and the creature is hostile to you, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against targets other than you and can't make opportunity attacks against targets other than you. This effect lasts for 1 minute, until one of your companions attacks the target or affects it with a spell, or until you and the target are more than 60 feet apart.

If you succeed on the check and the creature isn't hostile to you, it is charmed by you for 1 minute. While charmed, it regards you as a friendly acquaintance. This effect ends immediately if you or your companions do anything harmful to it.

It's not even magic!

Yeah. It's not magic as in anti-magic zone but it's probably magic as in dragon breath weapon. It is an extraordinary thing that happens in fantasy worlds. In other words it isn't magic in the game world but it is fantastical.

I think the game uses the 'Charm' condition in the same way that 3e used persuasion checks.

It is a hard rule about how a character will act in response to an extraordinarily charming character.

Even then, having Advantage on a Charisma check doesn't mean that the creature is going to do what you want it to. The DM can just determine that the outcome of the PC's action is not in doubt so there is no roll and only failure. Also, on the player's side they are free to roleplay being Charmed however they like with the exception of out right attacking the Charmer.

So in light of all that I think we need to look at how a creature is Charmed and if there are additional effects of that Charm before we can say whether it is evil.

At the very least I don't think imposing the Charm effect is an evil act.