D&D 5E Dragonborn (w/Fizbans) Still Suck?

[Charlaquin]

Being able to replace one of your attacks with the breath weapon instead of having to use your action just to use it is a big improvement for martial characters. Doesn’t make any difference for characters without extra attack.

1d10 damage instead of 2d6 is 1.5 damage lower on average at first level, but increasing by 1d10 at later levels instead of 1d6 easily makes up for it, pulling ahead by 0.5 average damage at 5th level, and capping out at 4.5 damage higher on average by 17th level. And that’s assuming you only hit one target each time; the difference multiples if you hit more targets.

Prof bonus uses between long rests instead of one use between short rests is something I hate to see, but it’s the way the wind is blowing. Assuming 6-encounter days with 2 short rests, you get 0.5 uses per encounter for a total of 3 per adventuring day with 1/short rest compared to 2 per adventuring day at 1st and as many as 6 per adventuring day at 17th level with prof bonus/long rest. And that’s before considering the fact that a 17th level character will almost always have a better use for their action than the classic dragonborn breath weapon, whereas a martial character would be happy to trade one of their extra attacks for a Fizban’s breath weapon use at any level.

All breath weapons being a 15 foot cone instead of some being a 5 foot by 30 foot line is a wash on paper - same total square footage in either case. In practice though, I think it’s going to be much easier to hit multiple opponents with a 15 foot cone, so this may be an improvement for some, if you really wanted to have like a blue dragon ancestor but wanted a cone instead of a line. On the other hand, it does mean no more line breath weapons for those who did want them, and in my opinion it’s a big flavor fail.

Verdict: Breath weapon is significantly improved, even though some of the changes make me grumble.

On top of that, dragonborn now get a 1/long rest ability based on subtype at 5th level: immunity to a damage type for 1 minute for chromatic, 1 minute fly speed with hover for gem, and a secondary breath weapon that can cause 1 round of incapacitation or a 20 foot push and knock prone for metallic. All three of these seem really nice, and fairly on par with other racial features that grant one use of a spell (usually 2nd level) per long rest at 5th level. Gem dragonborn also get at-will telepathy, which is potentially very useful.

Verdict: A solid addition that makes dragonborn more appealing next to innate casting races like Tieflings and Drow.

Still no Darkvision which is crazy to me since all dragons have Darkvision.

Overall, I’d say Fizban’s dragonborn are a really solid choice for martial characters with extra attack. For casters, I feel they’re improved, but less dramatically so, and with floating ASIs now being the standard, dragonborn have tougher competition, since hill dwarves and tortles are now very appealing race options for optimizers looking to play a caster. But I think that’s alright. The most important thing is really just that it doesn’t end up feeling like your race’s one stand-out feature is a dud after 5th level. And adding a second feature at 5th is a nice extra touch,

 

[Zardnaar]

Being able to replace one of your attacks with the breath weapon instead of having to use your action just to use it is a big improvement for martial characters. Doesn’t make any difference for characters without extra attack.

1d10 damage instead of 2d6 is 1.5 damage lower on average at first level, but increasing by 1d10 at later levels instead of 1d6 more than makes up for it, pulling ahead by 0.5 average damage at 5th level, and capping out at 4.5 damage higher on average by 17th level. And that’s assuming you only hit one target each time; the difference multiples if you hit more.

Prof bonus used between long rests instead of one use between short rests is something I hate to see, but it’s the way the wind is blowing. Assuming 6-encounter days with 2 short rests, you get 0.5 uses per encounter for a total of 3 per adventuring day with 1/short rest compared to 2 per adventuring day at 1st and as many as 6 per adventuring day at 17th level with prof bonuse/long rest. And that’s before considering the fact that a 17th level character will almost always have a better use for their action than the classic dragonborn breath weapon, whereas a martial character would be happy to trade one of their extra attacks for a Fizban’s breath weapon use at any level.

All breath weapons bring a 15 foot cone instead of some bring a 5 foot by 30 foot line is a wash on paper - same total square footage in either case. In practice though, I think it’s going to be much easier to hit multiple opponents with a 15 foot cone, so this may be an improvement for some, if you really wanted to have like a blue dragon ancestor but wanted a cone instead of a line. On the other hand, it does mean no more line breath weapons for those who did want them, and in my opinion it’s a big flavor fail.

Verdict: Breath weapon is *significantlyimproved, even though some of the changes make me grumble.

On top of that, dragonborn now get a 1/long rest ability based on subtype at 5th level: immunity to a damage type for 1 minute for chromatic, 1 minute fly speed with hover for gem, and a secondary breath weapon that can cause 1 round of incapacitation or a 20 foot push and knock prone. All three of these seem really nice, and fairly on par with other racial features that grant one use of a spell (usually 2nd level) per long rest at 5th level. Gem dragonborn also get at-will telepathy, which is potentially very useful

Verdict: A solid addition that makes dragonborn more appealing next to inmate casting races like Tieflings and Drow.

Still no Darkvision which is crazy to me since all dragons have Darkvision.

Overall, I’d say Fizban’s dragonborn are a really solid choice for martial characters with extra attack. For casters, I feel they’re improved, but less dramatically so, and with floating ASIs now being the standard, dragonborn have tougher competition, since hill dwarves and tittles are now very appealing race options for optimizers looking to play a caster. But I think that’s alright. The most important thing is really just that it doesn’t end up feeling like your race’s one stand-out
Great post btw I misread the book and you are quite correct. feature is a dud after 5th level. And adding a second feature at 5th is a nice extra touch,

Being able to replace one of your attacks with the breath weapon instead of having to use your action just to use it is a big improvement for martial characters. Doesn’t make any difference for characters without extra attack.

1d10 damage instead of 2d6 is 1.5 damage lower on average at first level, but increasing by 1d10 at later levels instead of 1d6 more than makes up for it, pulling ahead by 0.5 average damage at 5th level, and capping out at 4.5 damage higher on average by 17th level. And that’s assuming you only hit one target each time; the difference multiples if you hit more.

Prof bonus used between long rests instead of one use between short rests is something I hate to see, but it’s the way the wind is blowing. Assuming 6-encounter days with 2 short rests, you get 0.5 uses per encounter for a total of 3 per adventuring day with 1/short rest compared to 2 per adventuring day at 1st and as many as 6 per adventuring day at 17th level with prof bonuse/long rest. And that’s before considering the fact that a 17th level character will almost always have a better use for their action than the classic dragonborn breath weapon, whereas a martial character would be happy to trade one of their extra attacks for a Fizban’s breath weapon use at any level.

All breath weapons bring a 15 foot cone instead of some bring a 5 foot by 30 foot line is a wash on paper - same total square footage in either case. In practice though, I think it’s going to be much easier to hit multiple opponents with a 15 foot cone, so this may be an improvement for some, if you really wanted to have like a blue dragon ancestor but wanted a cone instead of a line. On the other hand, it does mean no more line breath weapons for those who did want them, and in my opinion it’s a big flavor fail.

Verdict: Breath weapon is *significantlyimproved, even though some of the changes make me grumble.

On top of that, dragonborn now get a 1/long rest ability based on subtype at 5th level: immunity to a damage type for 1 minute for chromatic, 1 minute fly speed with hover for gem, and a secondary breath weapon that can cause 1 round of incapacitation or a 20 foot push and knock prone. All three of these seem really nice, and fairly on par with other racial features that grant one use of a spell (usually 2nd level) per long rest at 5th level. Gem dragonborn also get at-will telepathy, which is potentially very useful

Verdict: A solid addition that makes dragonborn more appealing next to inmate casting races like Tieflings and Drow.

Still no Darkvision which is crazy to me since all dragons have Darkvision.

Overall, I’d say Fizban’s dragonborn are a really solid choice for martial characters with extra attack. For casters, I feel they’re improved, but less dramatically so, and with floating ASIs now being the standard, dragonborn have tougher competition, since hill dwarves and tittles are now very appealing race options for optimizers looking to play a caster. But I think that’s alright. The most important thing is really just that it doesn’t end up feeling like your race’s one stand-out feature is a dud after 5th level. And adding a second feature at 5th is a nice extra touch,

Thanks I misread the book. I think the newer players don't use short rests. Anecdotal they nova more than my between players.

Personally opinion long rest and shirt rest don't play nice togather. Push cones to shove long rest/daily abilities will win that.

And I quoted you twice. Idiot (me not you).

 

[AtomicPope]

Still no Darkvision.

So meh.

 

[Charlaquin]

Thanks I misread the book. I think the newer players don't use short rests. Anecdotal they nova more than my between players.

Personally opinion long rest and shirt rest don't play nice togather. Push cones to shove long rest/daily abilities will win that.

And I quoted you twice. Idiot (me not you).

I much prefer a mix of short and long rest abilities, and if I had to pick only one or the other it would be short rest. But, D&D’s gonna D&D I guess, and from 5th level on, prof bonus uses between long rests is at least as many uses per adventuring day as one use between short rests, even if you’re meeting that 6 encounter day with 2 short rests benchmark (which I know most groups don’t actually do most of the time). So, I’ll begrudgingly accept it, as long as they leave my precious Warlock alone.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I just got Fizbans and Witchlight. They buffed Dragonborn but relative to the buffs of Tieflings in Mordenkainens and Tasha's in general they are very modest.

But others have had the book for longer just wondering what others think. Obviously they're better but by how much idk yet.

Thoughts?

It depends what you do with them. The changes to breath weapon means they preform much better if they have the extra attack feature, but not particularly good melee attacks.

Works very nicely with bladesinger, especially metallic.

 

[Zardnaar]

I much prefer a mix of short and long rest abilities, and if I had to pick only one or the other it would be short rest. But, D&D’s gonna D&D I guess, and from 5th level on, prof bonus uses between long rests is at least as many uses per adventuring day as one use between short rests, even if you’re meeting that 6 encounter day with 2 short rests benchmark (which I know most groups don’t actually do most of the time). So, I’ll begrudgingly accept it, as long as they leave my precious Warlock alone.

Well they need to pick one or the other. Realistically long rest wins than if it was a different game/genre short rest better perhaps but you need to design from the ground up for that.

 

[Charlaquin]

Well they need to pick one or the other.

They don’t, but I understand why people want them to.

Realistically long rest wins than if it was a different game/genre short rest better perhaps but you need to design from the ground up for that.

Right, like I said, D&D gotta D&D. Even though a short rest system would have a lot of advantages over a long rest system, D&D’s design is necessarily constrained by what people think of as D&D, and for better or for worse, daily ability use limits is almost as deeply imbedded into its identity as the six abilities.

 

[Zardnaar]

They don’t, but I understand why people want them to.

Right, like I said, D&D gotta D&D. Even though a short rest system would have a lot of advantages over a long rest system, D&D’s design is necessarily constrained by what people think of as D&D, and for better or for worse, daily ability use limits is almost as deeply imbedded into its identity as the six abilities.

Pretty much.

The reason you can't really have both is because people aren't playing the way wotc expected with the 2 short rests and 6-8 encounters.

I'm not sure they did that in 2015 either but the surveys were 2012-14.

Would monks suck if you just tripled their ki points?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The reason you can't really have both is because people aren't playing the way wotc expected with the 2 short rests and 6-8 encounters.

I'm not sure they did that in 2015 either but the surveys were 2012-14.

I'm extremely skeptical that even in the era of the surveys and early DNDNext, people were actually running 6-8 encounters/day w/2 short rests routinely. I think things might have been skewed pretty badly by the pregen adventures WotC put out for the playtests. Certainly it doesn't seem like, based on discussion here or anywhere else, that most groups have ever done it that way.

 

[Parmandur]

Would monks suck if you just tripled their ki points?

Nope: if you triple their Ki, whether straight up or by the book taking two shorts rests and doing three novas a day, they track precisely with the Spell Slots of Paladins, Rangers, and Artificers if you apply the Spell Points variant.