D&D 5E Casters vs Martials: Part 1 - Magic, its most basic components

[Minigiant]

The impact of magic items absolutely varies as you note, that was my point. a fighter who's bread & butter is swinging a sword multiple times a round & being hi(or whiffed on) by baddies will benefit significantly more from magic weapons & armor than a caster who almost never casts more than one spell per round & might not even have armor proficiency will benefit from magic weapons & armor

My point is D&D places this power in magic item whereas the 13th level anime swordsman, manga thief, or movie gunslinger has them all inherently. They are already moving 100 feet, making 5 attacks a round, have 18+ AC, has high damage range attack, and has advantage to initiative.

D&D puts martial power in magic items where in other media where casters and masters stand equal the martial have said power within themselves.

The fighter doesn't need +2 sword, +2 plate, wings of gliding, boots of speed, gloves of strength, belt of strength and goggle of night vision in non D&D media. They get those abilities at level up.

Yes some media has very durable mages, Naruto is a good well known example where mages & martials stand side by side but is far from the most extreme(it's just well known). The only totally nonmagic individuals in the entire series are the but of a disparaging joke made at an obnoxious stereotype d&d happens to still embrace with one class. d&d does not design for the sort of baseline assumptions required for those sorts of media though & bizarrely there seems to be a group saying they want arthur without Excalibur or its sheath to compare to morgana mordred merlin and the magic item clad magic using characters from those sorts of media. Point out that Arthur has Excalibur & Excalibur's Sheath when comparing his capabilities to those other types though & people cry foul as we saw earlier after an example was given. @Minigiant might desperately want a martial pc that does not need magic items to keep up with magic item sporting characters, but that is some other system because d&d along with its genre is swimming with magic items and said pc will just be slvonkers broken and silly overpowered when it adds those magic itemsjust as *but my character concept really requires the game let me gestt multiple classes each level so the problem is d&d not supporting those characters" would be

Ain't no pure casters in Naturo. Everyone is a fighter/rogue or fighter/rogue/caster.

Why?

Because in most combat based fantasy anime/mange/manhua, when a martial type engages a caster type, the caster needs to be higher tier or they are on the backfoot. And if the caster is in the martial type's preffered attack range... the caster is dead. Not slightly beaten up or or lost 25% HP. They are dead without plot armor. And the martials can do this without magic items.

Magic items just enhance the martials there to make the combat interesting.
The top martials in Naruto, Bleach, One Piece,Kenshin, Slayers,Berserk, and preZ would mess up somemonsters and caster of D&D with mundane gear in fantastic fashion in ways a level 20 fighter would dream about.
Hawkeye, Black Widow, and the powerup JL versions of Batman and Green Arrow would do the same.

The point is D&D nerfs its martials by stripping some of their power and placing it into magic items in order to make an exciting collect-a-thon.

However this shouldn't be necessary. Martials could have magic items be true bonuses like how casters treat them. They could have some of their power given back to the base classes. The only issue is the martial classes would have a lot more class features.

 

[Asisreo]

That said, the main issue with the noncombat feats that are frequently included in the 5e martial classes is that, especially relative to spells, they are typically some combination of

So, I'll discuss each point, but I want to also mention that we should compare spells-to-spells...rather spells-to-feature.

What I mean is that if you compare, say, Intimidating Presence to a bard's Fear spell, you'll find it rather underwhelming.

But Intimidating Presence isn't a leveled spell. It's a cantrip, at least comparatively. Know Your Enemy is a cantrip with a minute casting time like mending. Infiltration Expertise is a cantrip that has to be repeatedly cast. But they're all cantrips (or rituals). But cantrips and rituals are almost never nearly as powerful as these features. We're comparing a cantrip that can read the metagame to advantage on the next attack by using concentration or fixing a single tear on an object.

Slow.
- create a new identity...in a week of downtime.

If your DM never grants downtime, it can be difficult to use the feature, but they should always be able to give the characters downtime. Still, it can be niche in the wrong campaign.

frighten a single enemy within 30 feet of you, or you know about two stats relative to

I don't know. Seems pretty broad to me. These are creatures in the general sense, so you can intimidate guards, or ghouls, or even a beholder if you're feeling lucky. Same with Know Your Enemy. Doesn't matter if they're human or not, you can get three ability scores, HP, class levels, and AC all in 6 minutes of interaction.

Your strong tough barbarian uses charisma as the attribute for their save, your dex/con/wis focused monk can now talk to ananything.

Charisma for the save is a balancing thing. Remember, it's a cantrip in terms of spellcasting. If you automatically had a DC 17 save for the feature, it'd start being something a barbarian would always try doing to even powerful enemies. Because, remember, it's nonmagical so creatures like devils and demons can't get advantage on it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Does he?

This reminds me of the exchange in one of the marvel movies. Thor says to Iron Man, "Take away your suit and what are you?", and Stark says "Genius. Billionaire. Philanthropist. Playboy". It's the perfect response. Why? Because the story of iron Man is so much more than his magic item.

So, the question is, again, what's the character concept and what's the story the player wants to tell?

If the character concept is Legendary King of England, then there are plenty of things that make that character special. Visionary. Amazing Leader. Greatest Diplomat. Warrior King. If he hadn't drawn the sword from the stone, he could've become king in other ways. Why? Because just like Iron Man there's so much more to the story of Arthur than his magic item.

The problem with that exchange and with the magic vs martial divide is that Thor could have retorted 'And I'm a prince beloved by a warrior people who has a buddy who can teleport me literally anywhere, with a great tactical mind, more wealth than your planet with the body of a Helmsworth who can also fly and throw lightning. '

Like the mage, Thor can be everything Iron Man is plus more because magic is just inherently and tacitly allowed to be more.

 

[Vaalingrade]

If you automatically had a DC 17 save for the feature, it'd start being something a barbarian would always try doing to even powerful enemies.

In what blighted universe would a badass barbar NOT want to do this to every enemy or a DM not want them to try?

 

[Asisreo]

In what blighted universe would a badass barbar NOT want to do this to every enemy or a DM not want them to try?

The same one where they'd rather just smack the darn creature

 

[tetrasodium]

My point is D&D places this power in magic item whereas the 13th level anime swordsman, manga thief, or movie gunslinger has them all inherently. They are already moving 100 feet, making 5 attacks a round, have 18+ AC, has high damage range attack, and has advantage to initiative.

D&D puts martial power in magic items where in other media where casters and masters stand equal the martial have said power within themselves.

The fighter doesn't need +2 sword, +2 plate, wings of gliding, boots of speed, gloves of strength, belt of strength and goggle of night vision in non D&D media. They get those abilities at level up.



Ain't no pure casters in Naturo. Everyone is a fighter/rogue or fighter/rogue/caster.

Why?

Because in most combat based fantasy anime/mange/manhua, when a martial type engages a caster type, the caster needs to be higher tier or they are on the backfoot. And if the caster is in the martial type's preffered attack range... the caster is dead. Not slightly beaten up or or lost 25% HP. They are dead without plot armor. And the martials can do this without magic items.

Magic items just enhance the martials there to make the combat interesting.
The top martials in Naruto, Bleach, One Piece,Kenshin, Slayers,Berserk, and preZ would mess up somemonsters and caster of D&D with mundane gear in fantastic fashion in ways a level 20 fighter would dream about.
Hawkeye, Black Widow, and the powerup JL versions of Batman and Green Arrow would do the same.

The point is D&D nerfs its martials by stripping some of their power and placing it into magic items in order to make an exciting collect-a-thon.

They don't have magic items?...

Spoiler

I could go on, but you mentioned anime... zanpakto, naruto stuff, some fairy tale stuff, overlord stuff, I could go on & start getting into more & more obscure things but I'll instead end that by pointing out dragonball stuff.

All of those media forms tend to be littered with magic & magic through tech items, often ones seen in the hands of no other individual in the world even when it's common like Harry Callahan's cannon.

Your "point" that martials are expected to gather magic items throughout a campaign is accurate, but in wotc's 5e that's a problem because wotc:

• did not bother to finish a magic item crafting system
• may as well have provided magic item prices through a game of darts
• did not bother to include a wealth by level/treasure by level
• Took things one step further by balancing both caster abilities and martial abilities around the assumption that no feats & no magic items would be used expecting the GM to take the heat for saying no to both or correct the resulting problems rather than adding an autoscaling thing like darksun once introduced for tables that want no feats & no magic items
• effectively left out the kind of guidance like the old behind the curtain stuff that might help a gm learn what is needed to finish all that stuff for wotc

All of those things compound & get into your last point...

However this shouldn't be necessary. Martials could have magic items be true bonuses like how casters treat them. They could have some of their power given back to the base classes. The only issue is the martial classes would have a lot more class features.

.
You can't have two different games at the flip of a switch. Designing martial classes with "a lot more class features" requires designing all of those features so they add up roughly on target with a given power level in aggregate and doing the same for casters in addition to ensuring that the system is structured in such a way that both types of classes can obtain similar power benefits through magic items & similar. wotc did not do that & you can't simply flip a switch to change one piece of that aggregate without significant redesign. That can all be built with a solid mathmatical strcture that allows some of it to be replaced quietly with an auto scaling (de)buff but 5e is not built that way either. It's a complex interconnected system that does not mesh neatly with the sort of isolation you are asking to be used.

 

[Voadam]

This reminds me of the exchange in one of the marvel movies. Thor says to Iron Man, "Take away your suit and what are you?",

The problem with that exchange and with the magic vs martial divide is that Thor could have retorted 'And I'm a prince beloved by a warrior people who has a buddy who can teleport me literally anywhere, with a great tactical mind, more wealth than your planet with the body of a Helmsworth who can also fly and throw lightning. '

Like the mage, Thor can be everything Iron Man is plus more because magic is just inherently and tacitly allowed to be more.

It wasn't Thor, it was Captain America.

 

[Minigiant]

They don't have magic items?...
I could go on, but you mentioned anime... zanpakto, naruto stuff, some fairy tale stuff, overlord stuff, I could go on & start getting into more & more obscure things but I'll instead end that by pointing out dragonball stuff. All of those media forms tend to be littered with magic & magic through tech items, often ones seen in the hands of no other individual in the world even when it's common like Harry Callahan's cannon.

I didn't say they don't have magic items.
I'm saying they don't need them.

Those martial characters are strong without magic items. Just as dangerous as a caster without magic items.

Magic items just made them stronger.

When Gourry from Slayers is mind controlled and fights the heroes, it's his skill, speed, and strength that made him dangerous. The magic sword just let him take on the heroes 3 on 1. But he could be any of them 1 on 1. Hegained the option to parry magic missiles instead of easily dodging them.

Your "point" that magic items are expected to gather magic items throughout a campaign is accurate, but in wotc's 5e that's a problem because wotc:

• did not bother to finish a magic item crafting system
• may as well have provided magic item prices through a game of darts
• did not bother to include a wealth by level/treasure by level
• Took things one step further by balancing both caster abilities and martial abilities around the assumption that no feats & no magic items would be used expecting the GM to take the heat for saying no to both or correct the resulting problems rather than adding an autoscaling thing like darksun once introduced for tables that want no feats & no magic items
• effectively left out the kind of guidance like the old behind the curtain stuff that might help a gm learn what is needed to finish all that stuff for wotc

All of those things compound & get into your last point...

yup

You can't have two different games at the flip of a switch. Designing martial classes with "a lot more class features" requires designing all of those features so they add up roughly on target with a given power level in aggregate and doing the same for casters in addition to ensuring that the system is structured in such a way that both types of classes can obtain similar power benefits through magic items & similar. wotc did not do that & you can't simply flip a switch to change one piece of that aggregate without significant redesign. That can all be built with a solid mathmatical strcture that allows some of it to be replaced quietly with an auto scaling (de)buff but 5e is not built that way either. It's a complex interconnected system that does not mesh neatly with the sort of isolation you are asking to be used.

Oh of course you can't do both. I'mjust saying that many martial class and racial features are locked up in magic items instead of the classes and races themselves.

This also means the casters mostly have to be nerfed item wise because they already get all their features from their class already.

 

[Gammadoodler]

They don't have magic items?...

Spoiler

I could go on, but you mentioned anime... zanpakto, naruto stuff, some fairy tale stuff, overlord stuff, I could go on & start getting into more & more obscure things but I'll instead end that by pointing out dragonball stuff.

All of those media forms tend to be littered with magic & magic through tech items, often ones seen in the hands of no other individual in the world even when it's common like Harry Callahan's cannon.

Your "point" that magic items are expected to gather magic items throughout a campaign is accurate, but in wotc's 5e that's a problem because wotc:

• did not bother to finish a magic item crafting system
• may as well have provided magic item prices through a game of darts
• did not bother to include a wealth by level/treasure by level
• Took things one step further by balancing both caster abilities and martial abilities around the assumption that no feats & no magic items would be used expecting the GM to take the heat for saying no to both or correct the resulting problems rather than adding an autoscaling thing like darksun once introduced for tables that want no feats & no magic items
• effectively left out the kind of guidance like the old behind the curtain stuff that might help a gm learn what is needed to finish all that stuff for wotc

All of those things compound & get into your last point...



.
You can't have two different games at the flip of a switch. Designing martial classes with "a lot more class features" requires designing all of those features so they add up roughly on target with a given power level in aggregate and doing the same for casters in addition to ensuring that the system is structured in such a way that both types of classes can obtain similar power benefits through magic items & similar. wotc did not do that & you can't simply flip a switch to change one piece of that aggregate without significant redesign. That can all be built with a solid mathmatical strcture that allows some of it to be replaced quietly with an auto scaling (de)buff but 5e is not built that way either. It's a complex interconnected system that does not mesh neatly with the sort of isolation you are asking to be used.

The thesis of the thread was the issues between casters and martials. This strand of conversation has been about the particularities of 5e issues vs. what could have been, what might be down the road, what other systems do.

It seems like your argument is "5e did things another way. Wanting something different means you don't want D&D".

That strikes me as a poor argument.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This reminds me of the exchange in one of the marvel movies. Thor says to Iron Man, "Take away your suit and what are you?", and Stark says "Genius. Billionaire. Philanthropist. Playboy". It's the perfect response. Why? Because the story of iron Man is so much more than his magic item.

OK. And does 5e allow martials to have that kind of non-combat power within the game?

If the character concept is Legendary King of England, then there are plenty of things that make that character special. Visionary. Amazing Leader. Greatest Diplomat. Warrior King. If he hadn't drawn the sword from the stone, he could've become king in other ways. Why? Because just like Iron Man there's so much more to the story of Arthur than his magic item.

Most of King Arthur's temporal influence and capabilities would still require DM buy-in rather than simply being granted as part of the class.

If the idea is 2 identical twins sorceresses who are the same in every way except one really important one - what's the problem?

If the story they're going for is, we BOTH want to be King of England and we're going to fight for it, and only one of us can end up with Excalibur.... Then the problem again is?

This is precisely the point Gammadoodler was making.
Two players can just create identical sorceresses of the same power, because 5e gives the tools to play Morgana as part of the class package.

And as you say, two players wanting to create King Arthur cannot do that in 5e because 5e does not give the tools to play King Arthur as part of a martial class package.
You yourself make the point that the two characters would have to fight over them if the DM did not grant enough to bring both fighters up to Morgana's level. Thus ending up with one character behind on power and fun, or a playing having to generate a new character other than the one they actually wanted to play.

Ain't no pure casters in Naturo. Everyone is a fighter/rogue or fighter/rogue/caster.

Why?

Because in most combat based fantasy anime/mange/manhua, when a martial type engages a caster type, the caster needs to be higher tier or they are on the backfoot. And if the caster is in the martial type's preffered attack range... the caster is dead. Not slightly beaten up or or lost 25% HP. They are dead without plot armor. And the martials can do this without magic items.

Magic items just enhance the martials there to make the combat interesting.
The top martials in Naruto, Bleach, One Piece,Kenshin, Slayers,Berserk, and preZ would mess up somemonsters and caster of D&D with mundane gear in fantastic fashion in ways a level 20 fighter would dream about.
Hawkeye, Black Widow, and the powerup JL versions of Batman and Green Arrow would do the same.

I've not watched much Naruto, but what I saw looked more like spellcaster battles with the occasional physical attack rather than martial characters.

The point is D&D nerfs its martials by stripping some of their power and placing it into magic items in order to make an exciting collect-a-thon.

However this shouldn't be necessary. Martials could have magic items be true bonuses like how casters treat them. They could have some of their power given back to the base classes. The only issue is the martial classes would have a lot more class features.

Every spell slot is a new, 1/day class feature that can be used to do anything from the range the caster has memorised.
Many caster classes even allow complete rearrangement of the capabilities of those class abilities after a short rest to allow them to be optimised according to what the group will be doing that day.