Sorry if this has already come up, as I haven't been following the entire thread.
But, if "martials" can do such things as jump crazy distances, or punch the ground to cause earthquakes, what is the point of having casters with spells that do it???
Don't misunderstand me, Fighter is one of my favorite classes in 5E, so I love seeing martials get some luvin', but IMO such things don't really seem the way to go. There is already too much overlap in 5E for my tastes--too many classes with spells or spell-like features--so I would rather see some other avenue explored towards making martials more versatile/appealing/etc.
One avenue is curbing Caster breadth. So not every caster can do everything. If the party Wizard didn't have access to transport spells because they picked divination type stuff instead, then the Martial could fill the "Transport role". Low level Martial is the animal and wagon guru. Mythical High Level Fighter grabs the Wizard under one arm and hulk jumps acrosss the chasm.
One avenue is just letting everyone do everything. Not as appealing to me either but better than some people can do everything and others can do much less.
I'd like to explore other avenues for Martials, but what would those be given baseline Caster breadth? You could give them Plot Points/Story Points (not very D&D but it can work)? You could give them baked in political power, but people seem to frown on those mechanics these days? What else were you thinking?
the Swashbuckler or like running full speed up and over walls or moving so fast you are out of site of the adversary never triggering opportunity attacks. Maybe you can make throws or ranged attacks that will hit a target if you simply know where they are . Or make a thrown object bound back to you after hitting many objects.
I would allow those at my table.
Yes, yes, I know, it would be better if they were baked into the rules, but right now they need DM buy-in, and I'd buy-in
Maybe splitting the ground and creating a gigantic fissure (which might gush water or lava or whatever) works of the Swashbuckler or like effectively invisible while you stay moving. Maybe you can make throws or ranged attacks that will hit a target as far as you can see
So are you saying that a player that deliberately chooses a character archetype that is purely about combat, ie "Fighter", and puts absolutely none of their available build resources over many many levels into anything outside fighting, should nonetheless have comparable supernatural abilities outside combat as a character who is defined by their entire concept as pursuing those supernatural abilities?
That complaint about a 20 strength 8 int 8cha 10wis fighter with gwm & sentinel is "limited" outside of combat tends to be what these threads come down to & seems to have been the case in this one from the start given at one point it was complained that arthur without Excalibur sword & scabbard is not as good as another arthur with Excalibur sword & scabbard so the base arthur should be improved & we should ignore the resulting improved arthur plus Excalibur sword & scabbard
IME I never see this as an issue. Casters can do whatever spells the have/know allow them to do, and even then it is limited by their spell slots. Can casters to "mighty" things? Sure, it's magic after all.
One avenue is just letting everyone do everything. Not as appealing to me either but better than some people can do everything and others can do much less.
Perhaps an issue also for me is I don't want my high level martials being "super heroes", but I understand (especially from some of what I've read) that other people do, so I'll go with that spirit...
First, I've attached a homebrew class, the Paragon, by @TheCosmicKid (???) and revised/edited by myself. We've used this class a few times at our table and players like it a lot. Some of the features of this class are more "super heroic".
Now, I'll ignore the martial classes who already have spells and/or spell-like features, and focus on those classes who primarily don't. Since Fighters are a favorite, I'll mention a couple things we've done in our 5E mod for Fighters.
1. Vastly expanded Fighting Styles. There are 13 in our game, each one has a base benefit, and then two improvements which are gained later on. The first improvement uses your bonus action, the second one requires your reaction.
Here is the styles we have:
Archery
Blind Fighting
Defense
Dueling
Great Weapon Fighting
Jousting
Mystic
Opportunistic Fighting
Polearm Fighting
Protection
Thrown Weapon Fighting
Two-Weapon Fighting
Unarmed Fighting
2. Added a feature, Consistent Attack, which allows the Fighter to use his bonus action to make a weapon attack when he takes an action other than the Attack or Cast a Spell action.
But if the Paragon isn't enough, I suppose if you want "super heroics" then anything you do will be close to "magic" in feel. That being said, there is a balance between plausible and magical IMO. The idea of a martial picking up another PC and leaping a 30-foot chasm (with a running start of course LOL) seems like the stuff of Greek heroes (astounding, but plausible), but doing the same thing and leaping a 100-foot chasm falls into the realm of certainly magical/mystical.
Now, an alteration I would be all for would be something like improving the Indomitable feature. Instead of allowing you to reroll a failed save, have it allow you to auto-succeed instead (similar to Legendary Resistance maybe?).
Maybe have Remarkable Athlete allow you to add your Fighter level to your long jump and half your Fighter level to your high jump instead of just your Strength modifier?
Perhaps the Survivor feature could be used when you have 0 hp if you accept a level of exhaustion?
Such types of improvements could probably be made to other features for other martial classes and subclasses. Just how outlandish you want to make things depends on where on the continuum between plausible (but awesome) and magical (aka "super heroic"). I know a lot of these aren't really in the magical realm, but it is hard for me to get to crazy since it isn't really my own cup of tea. As to the suggestions I've made, I could probably get on board with that level of enhancement if it was there, but its pushing my limit LOL!
Level Up has a maneuver called "Horizon Shot" works with a ranged weapon attack in the last tier.
But the instance I have seen of targeting an unseen adversary is in very mythic anime featured a spear thrower throwing at a lesser target near another epic class character as a warning shot so far away he only knew they were there because of instinct and he had been forewarned they were coming. It was a thrown attack and strength based I suppose.
Sorry if this has already come up, as I haven't been following the entire thread.
But, if "martials" can do such things as jump crazy distances, or punch the ground to cause earthquakes, what is the point of having casters with spells that do it???
Don't misunderstand me, Fighter is one of my favorite classes in 5E, so I love seeing martials get some luvin', but IMO such things don't really seem the way to go. There is already too much overlap in 5E for my tastes--too many classes with spells or spell-like features--so I would rather see some other avenue explored towards making martials more versatile/appealing/etc.
Traditionally the Martial Power Source in D&D had a few advantages over Spells
1) Resources. Martials Characters don;'t have to spend resources or as much resources. The Barbarian can Jump without a expending resources.
2) Preparedness. Martials have all their abilities ready at all times. The Barbarian can always Jump. The Wzard must use one of thier precious prepared spell to even have access to Jump.
3) Adjustment. Martials can adjust their abilities. Casters can only do what the spells say and have limited ability to adjust the action. The barbarian's ability to Jump comes with its ability to do athletic feats while Jumping.
But I also agree that the martial characters should focus more on the 4 aspects of martialdom offer just giving them spells spells. But half of the problem is keeping spells from jut copying martial aspects. Something that the middle editions went a bit wild on.
If the martials become Thor, Hulk, Hawkeye, and Black Widow, then Doctor Strange should not get spells to copy them fully.
Perhaps an issue also for me is I don't want my high level martials being "super heroes", but I understand (especially from some of what I've read) that other people do,
3) Adjustment. Martials can adjust their abilities. Casters can onlydo what the spells say and have limited ability to adjust the action. The barbarian's ability to Jump comes with its ability to do athletic feats while Jumping.
Yes the wizard can polymorph allies and enemies into just about any ability gain or nigh perfect nerf they want .. so much for martial being more adjustable. (or the Druid doing their own form)
Sorry if this has already come up, as I haven't been following the entire thread.
But, if "martials" can do such things as jump crazy distances, or punch the ground to cause earthquakes, what is the point of having casters with spells that do it???
Don't misunderstand me, Fighter is one of my favorite classes in 5E, so I love seeing martials get some luvin', but IMO such things don't really seem the way to go. There is already too much overlap in 5E for my tastes--too many classes with spells or spell-like features--so I would rather see some other avenue explored towards making martials more versatile/appealing/etc.
I don't even understand the question. Are you asking the point of spells like Jump in general? Are you asking what the point of having illusionists and casters able to cast fireball is if fighters get bigger tricks? Or are you asking why, if a 12th level fighter can clap their hands like the Hulk for a localised shockwave the first level wizard spell Thunderwave exists?
One avenue is curbing Caster breadth. So not every caster can do everything. If the party Wizard didn't have access to transport spells because they picked divination type stuff instead, then the Martial could fill the "Transport role". Low level Martial is the animal and wagon guru.
I would support this (and I play casters exclusively!). I think it would support more meaningful class & character distinction.
One way to do this would be if they tied this into the subclass, eg the divination school subclass gets less access to other schools, perhaps some sort of major /minor /none categorisation?
One avenue is just letting everyone do everything. Not as appealing to me either but better than some people can do everything and others can do much less.
I'd like to explore other avenues for Martials, but what would those be given baseline Caster breadth? You could give them Plot Points/Story Points (not very D&D but it can work)?
In fact this is D&D. It is an optional rule granted, but it's in the DMG. We've been using it in a long running campaign (6+ yrs so far!) and we all absolutely love it. It's resulted in some of the funniest, funnest, most memorable moments in the whole campaign. I can thoroughly recommend using it!
I love encouraging my players to ad-lib and take the campaign in unexpected directions. I use two tests to adjudicate: 1) the Rule of Cool and 2) char concept /story. If it passes those, I run with it!
But, if "martials" can do such things as jump crazy distances, or punch the ground to cause earthquakes, what is the point of having casters with spells that do it???
Or are you asking why, if a 12th level fighter can clap their hands like the Hulk for a localised shockwave the first level wizard spell Thunderwave exists?
. Or make a thrown object bound back to you after hitting many objects.
