Generally, Fighters are the "typical example" of a martial character, although by no means the only one. It is very much worth noting that not all fighters are pure martials: Eldritch knights, Rune Knights, Echo knights are all examples of fighters that aren't purely martial any more. Rogues and Barbarians have similar specific subclasses in the same manner. Classes like Paladins, Monks, Rangers are also all explicitly magic users and so are generally viewed more generously when it comes to allowing them to pull off unusual ideas through use of their class abilities.
I thought this was kind of the point of this discussion. If a player wants to play a non magic martial type, they're not going to choose an EK, Rune Knight, Arcane Trickster, Storm Herald, etc and would go for something more like BM, Assassin, Beserker, etc.
For those players, how do we ensure they have equivalent capability & potential for fun (I think this is the bit we agree on) but in a way that makes sense for char concept & world building internal consistently (this might be the bit we disagree on?)
No. This is about whether martials get to have non-combat power within the game at the same level that spells grant the spellcasters, without needing to get DM buy-in.
The discussion hasn't been limited to only non combat power. We have had pages of discussion that have involved both combat & non combat aspects.
You gave the Tony Stark example as an example that a martial doesn't need DM buy-in to be as effective in non-combat situations as a spellcaster; "Take away the suit (magic item) and what is left that is just granted by class features?
I'm guessing that you didn't intend to move the goalposts, and you just forgot where that example came from. But it does kinda prove our point.
I gave the Tony Stark example as a way of explaining that character abilities should be assessed within the framework of a char concept & telling a story, and that there is (& should be) more to an RP char than their magic items. This applies to any character, whether martial or caster.
By that standard, there is more to Thor than just Mjolnir, more to Arthur than just Excalibur, more to Elric than just Stormbringer, etc. Do you dispute this?
They make no appreciable difference than the caster ones.
Because both are almost entirely combat-focused.
So in a discussion about how martials generally need the DM to grant them magic items to perform as well out of combat as the spellcasters without items do, you chose to only allow combat-based items to be considered for the comparison.
There are any number of magic items that would have been germane to the subject at hand that would have made a massive difference in out-of combat performance for the martial: Apparatus of Kwalish, Carpet of Flying, Cloak of Invisibility, Cubic Gate, Helm of Teleportation to name a few.
But you chose to only allow items for the martial that give basic numerical bonuses, primarily only useful in combat, to be used for the comparison.
Why?
Hehe, dude, take a chill pill. There's no need for implications like that. Part of this conversation related to specific combat examples, including one post by the OP of the thread exploring what an epic level martial was capable of doing within the rules. My choice of items related to that discussion.
Really? It would seem that they do not in this case.
Ok, well I guess we can agree to disagree on that one. I think maybe we're seeing it differently because we're comparing apples with oranges because when we say within the rules I'm considering all of the rules of the game, which includes the DM-ing and world building whereas you were looking at just class rules. Maybe?
Generally because playing a batman-equivalent would require not only way more gold than a character can start with, but also either magic items or spells to replicate the many gadgets that he relies on. Since magic items aren't generally easily available for sale, and having spells takes the character out of the purely martial realm, this rather proves the point that a martial would need DM generosity to play a concept that many casters could without needing the DM to put their thumb on the scales.
Depends, are you expecting to be able to play batman at the height of his career at 1st level? That's not really how D&D works.
In order to play batman in D&D I would think you would need a very high level character.
And yes, obviously if you choose a char concept that relies on a background like billionaire that doesn't yet exist in the game, you would need your DM on board. That's why there are guidelines for creating new backgrounds in the rules.
Just like if you said to your DM that you wanted to play a Jedi in D&D, you might talk about it, and create a new background which corresponded to being a member of the order, and model it on a Kensai but swap out a couple of the class features which don't quite fit in exchange for being able to cast the jump spell with Ki, take the telekinetic feat, and agree that at some point you'll be looking to quest to gain a sun blade. Does this all need the DM on board? Of course it does, because that's kind of the point of playing a tabletop RPG isn't it? But wait, this was a magical character not a martial!
That statement does indeed make sense, but it has very little to do with what was being discussed.
Gammadoodler brings up the example of Morgana as a fully developed character with effective ways of influencing and taking part in non-combat challenges. As compared to King Arthur, whose influence and capability to deal with high-end non-combat challenges has to be granted by the DM because it is not given by class features.
Another fighter has very little effectiveness in such challenges unless the DM also gives them that ability, whereas another spellcaster still has that capability baked in to their class.
So are you saying that a player that deliberately chooses a character archetype that is purely about combat, ie "Fighter", and puts absolutely none of their available build resources over many many levels into anything outside fighting, should nonetheless have comparable supernatural abilities outside combat as a character who is defined by their entire concept as pursuing those supernatural abilities?
Que?
. Or make a thrown object bound back to you after hitting many objects.
