D&D General The Art and the Artist: Discussing Problematic Issues in D&D

[Charlaquin]

When I first read Lovecraft in high school, I didn't see the fear of miscegenation. And a big reason for that was because the idea of being that fearful about interracial relationships was a foreign concept to me. Oh, I knew some people who would make snide comments about interracial couples, but it wasn't an overriding concern of anyone I knew. And, honestly, I don't think I was even familiar with the word miscegenation until I was in college. At the time, I interpreted The Shadow Over Innsmouth more about the fear of inheriting negative traits from your ancestors. Things like mental illness, drug & alcohol abuse, or diseases. Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on interpreting the miscegenation angle on some of Lovecraft's stories now.

And it makes a lot of sense to me that a modern audience might interpret a story much differently than those who were around when it was first produced. Even today, whenever I fill out a medical form for a new doctor, I am consistently asked about whether or not various conditions or diseases are common in my family. Did either of my parents or grandparents have cancer, heart disease, or diabetes? Is this a history of mental illness? Is there some unknown genetic or learned trait that I have, perhaps without even realizing it, that's going to bite me in the butt one day?

I think some of Lovecraft's stories can be interpreted different from what he intended. And I think that's why they continue to resonate with some people today.

Indeed! If it wasn’t clear, I’m a big fan of reinterpreting and reclaiming cosmic horror from Lovecraft.

 

[Irlo]

I think all these conversations are tantamount to telling people they are having "bad wrong fun" myself because it is the intent of the person perceiving it as much as the artist creating it. In cases like D&D Gygax didn't have racist intent nor did he encode racist tendencies into the work.

I wish it worked that way. People encode all sorts of stuff in their work, including racist and sexist imagery, tropes, and stereotypes. It's usually not intentional. It's thoughtless, unconscious, not considered, chosen out of habit or laziness or not caring or not knowing. But people, especially people most directly affected by it, notice it. I try to believe them when they point it out to me.

And, no, these conversations are not tantamount to telling people they are having "bad wrong fun" -- a phrase I never thought would pass my keyboard, gods forgive me. (I'm speaking for myself here. You said that you hear it differently. I don't understand why, but I understand that you do.) These conversations are, maybe, asking you to consider how you're having fun and how that affects other people, to think about how you're spending money and if that aligns with your values, and to think about if you care if how you spend money aligns with your values.

We'd all be better off if we (consumers, game designers, artists, etc.) just paid attention to what we're doing and why, what we're including in our work and why, and what we support either with our arguments on-line or with our money in the marketplace. It's not enough not to have racist (or sexist or heteronormative) intent. Let's actively intend to exclude racist materials in our games.

Please understand that none of this is directed to you specifically. It's a message I give to myself when I remember to do it.

 

[Gradine]

him/her?

Not an argument against moderation, just pointing out that him/her is not an all-inclusive term for someone you do not know the gender of.

 

[Charlaquin]

The real-real argument here is what matters more: People's perception, (real or imagined), of offensive material or being able to actually deduce whether or not something is offensive in and of itself.

It is impossible to “deduce whether or not something is offensive in and of itself” because offensiveness is not an objective quality.

 

[Malmuria]

It is impossible to “deduce whether or not something is offensive in and of itself” because offensiveness is not an objective quality.

"But through Reason, We can Understand that which is Objectively Offensive, and Find Universal Principles, thereby Deducing that Pineapple on Pizza is a Moral wrong." - Kant, probably

 

[Krachek]

I knew that Lovecraft was sick, depressive and a tormented man.
I try to read one of his book, lame failure. but still I know Cthulhu and his concept of old gods, absolute chaos, forbidden knowledge, inevitable corruption.
Those ideas are integrated in many fantasy now, have been rewrite, replay numerous time, and even if you don’t mention Lovecraft anymore, those ideas will continue to help fantasy for a long time. So trying to expunge those reference from fantasy because the man was also racist on top of being depressive, sick and tormented won’t help anyone.

 

[Charlaquin]

I don't really think it's a world view so much as an observation. If you do not have power to change your circumstances, then you must endure them. Are you saying that statement is false?

You’re not wrong. That’s why collective action is important. People have more power to change their circumstances collectively than individually.

 

[MGibster]

I wish it worked that way. People encode all sorts of stuff in their work, including racist and sexist imagery, tropes, and stereotypes. It's usually not intentional. It's thoughtless, unconscious, not considered, chosen out of habit or laziness or not caring or not knowing. But people, especially people most directly affected by it, notice it. I try to believe them when they point it out to me.

What do you mean believe them? When someone tells me they're offended by something I absolutely believe them. But it doesn't necessarily follow that I share their offense and even when I do I might not agree on what the best course of action to take when dealing with the offending material is.

We'd all be better off if we (consumers, game designers, artists, etc.) just paid attention to what we're doing and why, what we're including in our work and why, and what we support either with our arguments on-line or with our money in the marketplace. It's not enough not to have racist (or sexist or heteronormative) intent. Let's actively intend to exclude racist materials in our games.

I'm reminded of the LBJ quote: "Doing what's right isn't the problem. It's knowing what's right." We don't all agree on what's racist, sexist, ableist, or other various other ists.

 

[teitan]

What do you mean believe them? When someone tells me they're offended by something I absolutely believe them. But it doesn't necessarily follow that I share their offense and even when I do I might not agree on what the best course of action to take when dealing with the offending material is.

I'm reminded of the LBJ quote: "Doing what's right isn't the problem. It's knowing what's right." We don't all agree on what's racist, sexist, ableist, or other various other ists.

I had a friend get chewed out for being ableist for sharing a flyer about his art showing with a friend who had a missing limb. His friend was excited about the show but the witness tore him a major butthole for bragging to his “disabled” friend about his talent. It was quite the scene.

 

[Charlaquin]

Re Blazing Saddles, I remember Lindsay Ellis saying it was ok for Mel Brooks to do jokes about Nazis (The Producers), because he was Jewish. But other people shouldn't. Maybe you have to be black to make jokes about racism. Personally I don't agree with Ellis.

I think there’s some truth to the notion, but it’s more complicated than “you have to belong to a marginalized group to make jokes about discrimination towards that group.” The more nuanced version is, Mel Brooks had a very intimate understanding of the discrimination Jewish people face, due to having faced it himself. He had a less intimate understanding of the discrimination black people face, due to not having faced it himself. Does that mean he shouldn’t have made jokes about racism? Absolutely not. But it does mean that he needed to take greater care when constructing those jokes. I imagine he tried his best to do so. Whether or not the result was successful, your mileage may vary.