D&D 5E Beast master wants to use pet to get +5 to passive perception

[iserith]

Of course, it applies to travelling, because it's (surprise) in the travelling section.

But you haver completely failed, once more, to prove how this deprives any character of his passive perception for any check required by the RAW. Prove it, or just let it drop.

Failing to answer all specific questions that I've pointed out just shows that you have zero ground to stand on. As written, this sentence applies to group checks, exactly as written.

Especially since I've given you en explicit example of the RAI that shows that even a heavily distracted person still gets his passive check. YOU ARE NOT READING THE RULES PROPERLY.

It's been quoted repeatedly by myself and others. You just won't accept it so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

 

[Seramus]

Again, 5e is written in plain english. Travelling is for journeys, as pointed out many times in the rules, it even has its own subsection, both in movement and exploration. Does this mean it's the whole of it ? Certainly not. Again, grappling is mentioned in the combat section,, does it mean that all combat is grappling ?

After that, do what you want in your own games, but as a reminder, my personal objection to it is that it is used here for the sole purpose of depriving some characters of perception checks, so that they can be surprised by adversaries. If I were to play in such a campaign (which is unlikely), I would certainly never undertake any activity other than being on guard, and would find this very boring.

I clearly think you're wrong. I completely support your right to play that way, but I think doing so creates the issues with Perception that you describe having. Beyond that, I'm not sure we have anything else to discsuss?

I mean, I know that talking on the internet is more of a performance. We're explaining our positions so other readers can make their own informed decisions, not literally trying to change the mind of the debater. But I feel like we've done all we can on this point. So I guess we just wish each other the best of luck, unless there's anything else to cover?

 

[Maxperson]

We're explaining our positions so other readers can make their own informed decisions, not literally trying to change the mind of the debater.

Oh my God! You mean that this entire time when I've been waving my hand at the monitor and using the force, nothing has been happening on the other side?!

 

[Lyxen]

"Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger.

Once more, does it say that they lose their passive perception ? NO.

These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats. However, a character not watching for danger can do one of the following activities instead, or some other activity with the DM's permission."

Sounds a lot like the character is not able to use their passive perception in certain circumstances.

Once more, the rule is clear, the ONLY thing they do is not contributing their passive Wisdom (Perception) the group, but it shows that OBVIOUSLY they still have their passive perception, it's just that it does not contribute to the group.

Clear, and non-ambiguous, they still have their passive perception, as explained by JC, it's always on unless you are unconscious or equivalent.

 

[Lyxen]

It's been quoted repeatedly by myself and others. You just won't accept it so I'm not sure where that leaves us.

It leaves you with exactly ZERO support for taking the passive perception away from characters, since you have not been able to prove that any rule in the game provides an exception to the rules on Surprise and Stealth.

As it leaves you unable to prove that it does anything else than having this passive perception absolutely available, only not contributing to the group (as per the group rules). Face it, there is only ONE sentence, and it actually does confirm that they keep their passive perception, since it's just not contributing to the group, it means that it exists.

 

[Lyxen]

Do you really think that passage is talking about just walking through a dungeon on the way to la la land and not exploring the dungeon? Really?

Yes, I do.

It's clearly talking about walking around the dungeon exploring.

No, it's just saying that as part of exploration there might be some movement that is construed as travelling, but it never says that it's all the movement that there is.

If he's still, then he's with the rest of the party and he's not scouting. When he moves, he's traveling through the dungeon looking around before reporting back to the group.

He is not travelling, he is just moving around. A travel means something specific, usually long, and with a goal in mind.

That just coincidentally = 30 feet per round? Maybe they assume the rest of the party are arses that won't wait for the dwarf who then has to jog along to keep up.

Just read the DMG sentence.

And yet still equals exactly the standard movement speed of 30 per 6 second round.

300 feet? That's really a long distance?

It certainly is. Not many dungeons have levels 300 feet in size, that's 50 cases, most don't even go over 25.

Look at the DMG page 242. Map Travel Pace. Note how it has travel pace in a dungeon. Note how the normal travel pace in the dungeon is 30 feet a round.

And again, you can travel in some dungeons. For example back to the stairs. Otherwise, you are exploring, finding your way, sneaking around, fighing, discussing. Not travelling.

Page 242 also says, "Whatever environment the adventurers are exploring, you can use a map to follow their progress as you relate the details of their travels. In a dungeon, tracking movement on a map lets you describe the branching passages, doors, chambers, and other features the adventurers encounter as they go..."

Yes, it's called "their travels" and in english it has a specific meaning.

The second sentence directly relates to the first sentence, so in proper context it is talking about dungeon travel while exploring the dungeon. The it gives you the Map Travel Pace chart with dungeon travel on it.

The second sentence mostly talks about "overland journey", would you use that for a few hundred feet ? Would you say that adventurers need to catch their breath after walking that long ?

You are also cherry picking and ignoring the part of the Special Travel Pace section in the DMG that gives the actual rules. Those rules are...

In 1 minute, you can move a number of feet equal to
your speed times 10.

In 1 hour, you can move a number of miles equal to
your speed divided by 10.

Note how it's dependent on racial movement speed.

And yes, usually, when walking around, travelling, you can more a certain number of feet. But I don't think that you have ever applied travel pace while exploring a dungeon for the first time, and going from room to room, scouting, etc.

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, I do.



No, it's just saying that as part of exploration there might be some movement that is construed as travelling, but it never says that it's all the movement that there is.



He is not travelling, he is just moving around. A travel means something specific, usually long, and with a goal in mind.



Just read the DMG sentence.



It certainly is. Not many dungeons have levels 300 feet in size, that's 50 cases, most don't even go over 25.



And again, you can travel in some dungeons. For example back to the stairs. Otherwise, you are exploring, finding your way, sneaking around, fighing, discussing. Not travelling.



Yes, it's called "their travels" and in english it has a specific meaning.



The second sentence mostly talks about "overland journey", would you use that for a few hundred feet ? Would you say that adventurers need to catch their breath after walking that long ?



And yes, usually, when walking around, travelling, you can more a certain number of feet. But I don't think that you have ever applied travel pace while exploring a dungeon for the first time, and going from room to room, scouting, etc.

You're entire argument boils down to a very broad and vague rule that says, "5e usually uses the common definition of things." to overrule the very specific rules that say that travel is based on racial movement. The game doesn't work that way. Specific beats general, not the other way around.

 

[iserith]

It leaves you with exactly ZERO support for taking the passive perception away from characters, since you have not been able to prove that any rule in the game provides an exception to the rules on Surprise and Stealth.

As it leaves you unable to prove that it does anything else than having this passive perception absolutely available, only not contributing to the group (as per the group rules). Face it, there is only ONE sentence, and it actually does confirm that they keep their passive perception, since it's just not contributing to the group, it means that it exists.

That a rule is one sentence or multipage pages is irrelevant. The rules in the section under discussion work hand in glove with the rules for surprise and hiding. It all works together seamlessly.

In any case, nothing's being taken away from the players. They are making the meaningful choice to risk failing to notice hidden threats in exchange for doing other activities that may be useful to them in context. If they don't want to take that risk, then they don't engage in those activities. This is all in their hands.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

It leaves you with exactly ZERO support for taking the passive perception away from characters, since you have not been able to prove that any rule in the game provides an exception to the rules on Surprise and Stealth.

PSA: Spamming the thread with endless repetitions of this same, tired old "argument" isn't persuasive, isn't moving discussion forward, and isn't earning you any respect.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Once more, does it say that they lose their passive perception ? NO.

Once more, the rule is clear, the ONLY thing they do is not contributing their passive Wisdom (Perception) the group, but it shows that OBVIOUSLY they still have their passive perception, it's just that it does not contribute to the group.

So, by your ruling, the PC could notice a threat with their passive Wisdom (Perception) but, as long as they are doing some other activity like navigating or tracking, they somehow would then be unable to communicate that threat to the group?