D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[DND_Reborn]

"Fighters don't get much exciting to do and aren't even capable of pulling of normal real-world human feats from Olympic athletes or Jack LaLane or even your basic stuntman," I say, "And I want my fantasy hero to be more fantastic than the guy at th egym who grunts too loud and never wipes anything down."

Except another response you've gotten is:

"Ok, so what can we do to fighter to allow them to do things people can do IRL or even go beyond that?"

Whether you appreciate those efforts or not, they have been there...

 

[Asisreo]

I'd get that if D&D wasn't trying to be GURPS in flavor. WOTC is is pushing 5e D&D in many directions in genre but doesn't provide the mechanics to match those genre.

So again you get a Cupcake with Ravenloft or Strixhaven icing instead of a Ravenloft or Strixhaven Flavored Cupcake.

Is that true? I've seen this claim before but I've never seen D&D marketed as a system that encompasses all genres. In fact, the DMG states "Heroic Fantasy is the baseline assumed by the D&D rules." It then describes what "Heroic Fantasy" is.

It should be noted, alot of the fantasies that many that want complex martials to fulfill aren't mentioned in the DMG.

Comic book fantasy like The Hulk or Captain America aren't given a good fit for what's listed. The two closest fantasy types mentioned in the DMG is Epic Fantasy or Mythic Fantasy, but it's important to know that epic fantasy described in the DMG are not what they sound like.

Epic Fantasy as described in the DMG would fit better if named "Classical Romance." It talks about going on journeys where you must save a princess as a force of chosen good versus evil. Like with the Knights of the Round.

So, essentially, it's the fairy tale stories. You might want to have fighters mimic famous mythical characters like Cu chulainn or Beowulf. Though, a lot of the journeys they went through and the power boosts they received are magical in some form. Or in beowulf's case, they didn't do much outside of fighting. Sure, they swam pretty far and was able to fight in water for a bit, but a fighter could go that far.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Except another response you've gotten is:

"Ok, so what can we do to fighter to allow them to do things people can do IRL or even go beyond that?"

Whether you appreciate those efforts or not, they have been there...

Every suggestion is shot down with ~but my verisimilitude~ or ignored.

Moving the Battlemaster chassis back to the core fighter with a reasonable number of superiority die rather than the 'eh, you can be a decent warrior once or twice a combat' levels they have with subclasses that build on that as you specifically have shown is a start.

But that discussion doesn't last long before being drowned out by 'NERF CASTERS' and 'ITS GOOD ENOUGH, SHUT UP'.

 

[Guest 7034872]

Moving the Battlemaster chassis back to the core fighter with a reasonable number of superiority die rather than the 'eh, you can be a decent warrior once or twice a combat' levels they have with subclasses that build on that as you specifically have shown is a start.

I actually think that's a really good idea. I love the superiority dice and what can be done with them. Incorporating them into into all Fighter sub-classes and increasing the number of them between short rests could do a lot, I'd think. That and maybe getting access to more things one could do with the superiority dice, right? Bigger jumps, faster, more damaging lunges and parries, and greater opportunities to go critical on damage--stuff like that could help, no?

 

[Brotton Goodfellow]

To sort of reframe this in thread terms;

I have never experienced the issue personally, and don't think it is a problem.
Counter: You perhaps don't play with folks who push the system to the extreme. A more casual approach and/or lower level game does not often experience the problem at its worst.

Counter-coutner: I have a few houserules to keep the game on track, so perhaps there is an issue, but its a small one.

Counter-counter-counter: That may work for you, but I prefer a system that works out of the box and not rely on Oberoni based solutions at the table.

Your first counter is dead on. It’s a pretty hack and slash campaign with a get rich or die trying kinda vibe. No one at the table is taking the game serious enough for there to be an issue with the difference in power levels of a wizard compared to a fighter.

PS: Your other counter points were spot on.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Every suggestion is shot down with ~but my verisimilitude~ or ignored.

While suggestions might not be universally accepted, that is far from the truth.

Moving the Battlemaster chassis back to the core fighter with a reasonable number of superiority die rather than the 'eh, you can be a decent warrior once or twice a combat' levels they have with subclasses that build on that as you specifically have shown is a start.

Which is something many people (myself included to a point) have suggested.

But that discussion doesn't last long before being drowned out by 'NERF CASTERS' and 'ITS GOOD ENOUGH, SHUT UP'.

I am all for nerfing casters (to one degree or another ), I understand that is not a design choice many people prefer, but I do.

And anyone who says "SHUT UP" will be red flagged quickly enough and taken out of the conversation, so you could continue having it with more reasonable posters.

 

[Minigiant]

I'm going to say that is by design and is a feature rather than bug. They want the general experience to be uniform and only lightly flavored when it comes to setting/genre/theme. If they didn't, I can't imagine how WotC would have released three MTG settings without a single overhaul to the magic system.

Then again, that's EXACTLY what I want; I like that each setting isn't dictating the rules to me, but instead enforcing a theme or genre. I grew up in the days of 2e where the exact abilities of a class was determined by the setting book it was (re)printed in, and it was a horrible chaotic mess to design for and use or where options from one setting were too OP/UP to be used in another.

The issue is I think WOTC was selling people on a Ravenloft Cupcake and the growth of 5e is based on people expecting Ravenloft cupcakes, Avatar Cupcakes, Demon Slayer Cupcakes, Batman the Knight Cupcake..

then provides a Vanilla cupcake with Icing.

VRGtR was positively reviewed. But what was the biggest common criticism: It wasn't dark enough.

And to me that's the core cause of the martial issue in 5e: It doesn't get martial enough. It's all vanilla with flavors on top. So martials can't get deep in the martial flavor and aredependent on the DM or 3PP to inject flavor and hope it gets allowed.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I actually think that's a really good idea. I love the superiority dice and what can be done with them. Incorporating them into into all Fighter sub-classes and increasing the number of them between short rests could do a lot, I'd think. That and maybe getting access to more things one could do with the superiority dice, right? Bigger jumps, faster, more damaging lunges and parries, and greater opportunities to go critical on damage--stuff like that could help, no?

Yes, it has been suggested in other threads on this topic.

While not a fan of the superiority dice mechanic, I can agree there is a lot there to be explored.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Which is something many people (myself included to a point) have suggested.

Which is why I cited that idea specifically. Your idea for a new fighter class was pretty good.

I didn't intend to not give credit where credit's due.

I actually think that's a really good idea. I love the superiority dice and what can be done with them. Incorporating them into into all Fighter sub-classes and increasing the number of them between short rests could do a lot, I'd think. That and maybe getting access to more things one could do with the superiority dice, right? Bigger jumps, faster, more damaging lunges and parries, and greater opportunities to go critical on damage--stuff like that could help, no?

Imagine a Champion who added superiority dice to athletics checks or ground speed, actually making them capable of doing better than other classes at such things instead of just having advantage give them a better chance at merely succeeding (ie: jumping further, climbing and swimming faster, etc).

Imagine an arcane archer who could burn dice to extend their range or modify the energy type of their shots.

Imagine a new Battlemaster giving superiority dice to allies.

It's easy if you try...

 

[Minigiant]

Is that true? I've seen this claim before but I've never seen D&D marketed as a system that encompasses all genres. In fact, the DMG states "Heroic Fantasy is the baseline assumed by the D&D rules." It then describes what "Heroic Fantasy" is.

It has Heroic Fantasy is the default. Then it says you can choose to play other types of fantasy, lists those typesof fantasy...

.. then doesn't give you the tools to play those flavors of fantasy.

At best you get is heroic fantasy lightly flavored with dark, heroic fantasy lightly flavored with mythic, heroic fantasy lightly flavored with comics. heroic fantasy lightly flavored with anime.

And by the design's nature, it is easily to tweak casters to harder flavored fantasy than martials.