D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Fanaelialae]

So here is my issue. Part of these posts are that the fighter doesn't get "shenanigans" in out of combat areas the way casters do. Likewise, three l they don't get enough "high level" abilities to keep them on par.

Ok. Let's pretend that a fighter and a wizard who only uses blasting magic are equal at the end of the day. (Big assumption, but let's pretend). The fighter is the equal of the mage in damage per second when averaged.

What high level ability does the fighter get that matches Time Stop? Teleport? Feeblemind? Wish? How do they get up to the creative use of Permanent Image? Dominate Monster? Mordy's Mansion? Foresight? Etherealness? If you include divine magic, what is a fighter doing comparable to Earthquake or Word of Recall or Regeneration?

Ok, maybe it's not fair to compare martial ability to 6th+ level magic. That is supposed to be rare even for casters. Let's go 5th and under. Let's cede the ground of high level shenanigans to casters who only get 1-4 per day.

What does the fighter get that matches scrying? Greater Invisibility? Geas? Stoneshape? Locate Creature? Tongues? Fly? Remove Curse? Pass without Trace? Misty Step? False Life? Fog Cloud? Mage Hand? Prestidigitation? When do they get them? Can a 11th level fighter match a 1st level wizard in shenanigans?

I'm genuinely curious, once combat is ignored, how much "reality shaping" ability a mundane fighter should have. Because I cannot fathom a game where a high level warrior can use an ability they rivals a high (or even medium) level spell when it comes to shenanigans.

It doesn't require perfect parity.

Let's say that on a D&D scale of 1-10, a 20th level fighter is a 10 in combat, 3 in exploration, and 2 in social. Whereas the wizard is an 8 in combat, 9 in exploration, and 6 in social.

Note that these numbers are open to debate, but are exclusively based on class features (no backgrounds, magic items, or anything else that's available to all classes).

Unless you think those estimations are off by a very large degree, it's clear that the fighter's exploration and social potential could easily be bumped up by at least a point or two without even coming close to stepping on the wizard's toes. It's purely a quality of life improvement for fighters, to give them improved mechanical agency with respect to the pillars where they have very little (particularly when compared to the wizard).

 

[Remathilis]

Once combat is ignored (or just not in a session, there is nothing a fighter brings that any other character can't... rogue at least gets to have some skill things, but even that bards get them too...

in a combat lite game (say strixhaven or wild beyond the witchlight) a bard a wizard, a druid and an artificer will have dozens (hundreds by level 20) of options that a party of 2 fighters a barbarian and a rouge will... and the only thing the 2nd party has over the first is HP.

Which doesn't answer my question. I'm asking what a fighter should be expected to do when the wizard is prepping all those wonderful shenanigans spells. The wizard can look at the fighter and say "you do the killing, I'll screw with the story" never prep a combat spell while the fighter cannot say in return "no, you prep all blasting magic, I'll handle the out of combat shenanigans".

The question is is the scope and nature of the out of combat shenanigans the fighter should get that doesn't also impede the rogue's roll?

 

[Remathilis]

Just because they can't get everything doesn't mean it's justified to give them nothing.

So tell me what level "spells" a fighter's shenanigans should replicate?

 

[Asisreo]

the drunk master can not prep X or Y they ALWAYS have Z. So you don't feel like you wasted preping Z it was your only option.
I will disagree with this becuse that is also true with plenty of casters "My waarlock took X spell and is locked in instead or Y"

I think we're getting closer to the crux of the issue.

What you're saying is that since martials have no options, they don't have the opportunity to feel like they wasted an option. Your also saying known casters also have that feeling, but I'll disagree with that because even known casters can switch out spells. At a much slower rate, mind, but upon each level up, if you realize there are no humanoids in your campaign, you can switch Charm Person out. Though, the same could be done in reverse where you switch Charm Person out for a combat spell only to realize that the next several sessions are humanoid interactions with little-to-no combat.

For martials, even if their utility is small and limited, they generally have them as flavorful options that can't be chosen out of a list. You choose Champion for their playstyle, Remarkable Athlete is a flavorful bonus, so it not having much use doesn't feel like you chose poorly because you never intended on it being used frequently anyways.

I'm not presenting this as an actual suggestion for how to fix the fighter, but imagine for a moment if every high level fighter was Hercules. They have incredible strength, up to and including being able to reshape the flow of rivers, and smashing mountains. That's quite powerful. It has significant potential uses in the exploration pillar (less so social, unless you intend to intimidate). It does not increase the fighter's mental load by a substantial amount (probably significantly less than all the magic items carried by a Christmas tree fighter).

I understand this isn't a real suggestion, but how would this look like in-practice. Would "Destroy Mountain" and "Flow River" be a feature? If they were, and let's assume they were automatically given so it's not a choice-point, how many more features would they need or how specific/loose would they be.

For example, Destroy Mountain means they can break a mountain in, let's say, a minute. Okay, but does that mean all mountains are destroyed equally? Does this player now have the capability to basically destroy entire dungeons only because they reside in a mountain? Are we leaving this up to the DM or are we coming up with a rigorous system. Is this at-will or daily? Or based off of a resource? It would be odd if a fighter could destroy a mountain and kill 8 dragons in a day, but two mountains and no dragons are suddenly too much. Although, I'm fine with oddities like that.

The issue is that now the fighter can break mountains but can't cut trees. Or they can redirect rivers but can't swim against a current. Making them features will usually cause each feat of strength to be difficult to compare with similar but different feats of strength.

So then the alternative solution would be to rather let mountains have some form of destructibility and rivers have some subsystem that dictates how they can be redirected and trees have a set amount of damage until they're cut. All well and good, but that system becomes exhaustive quickly. Technically, that a loose-form subsystem like this is already baked into the rules. If a DM decides a mountain counts as a gargantuan object, there are rules to guide them, making it possible for a fighter to do so.

Though, I'm assuming that would be unsatisfactory, which leads back into creating a bigger subsystem just for destroying mountains. They certainly could spend their time on making this subsystem, though I don't see why they'd bother. It doesn't really have much to do with their core themes and adventures might never see a mountain in their campaign anyways. It adds pages to their books and expends more ink, but those pages and ink could be served to adding a more beloved subclass or that time could be spent creating hundreds of more iconic monsters.

 

[Asisreo]

for martials we have Barbarians (when do I rage) and rogues (do I use uncanny dodge) then fighter... there is no "More complex" answer.

I am all for keeping the basic classes... I just want non spell caster complex ones too.

There is "more complex." A champion is much simpler than a rogue or battlemaster fighter. It's just that the most complex martial is less complex than the simplest caster. Which only reaffirms that the dichotomy exists, though the question is less about that dichotomy existing and more about why it should be a priority to get rid of.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I'm genuinely curious, once combat is ignored, how much "reality shaping" ability a mundane fighter should have. Because I cannot fathom a game where a high level warrior can use an ability they rivals a high (or even medium) level spell when it comes to shenanigans.

I can think of 2 ways and there are more:

1) you give them meta currency to mold the fiction. "my old buddy is a guard at the keep and he is disatisfied with his treatment at the hands of Baddy X". Not really embraced by D&D but it works for other games so you can have Batman and Superman together.

2) You give them mythical martial abilities that are outside the action economy that allow for similiar effects but are not the same as D&D magic. (they are 'magical' in the sense that they are fantastical in a fantasy world)

Why is fly useful? Allows you to easily fight flying enemies and allows you to get to places that might be difficult.

So, some combat ability to reliably knock down fliers or jump on their backs. Some movement ability that lets you use any crazy jumps, handholds, vines, etc. to move from point X to point Y without any checks.

Dimension door = break through walls
Teleport = there was a great epic destiney ability in 4e:

Dark Road (24th level): You can walk to any destination you desire in a single, uninterrupted 24-hour period of walking. No matter how distant the location, or how many planes separate you from it, you reach the destination 24 hours after you begin, finding shortcuts, portals, or other modes of transport previously unknown to you. You do not require any rest, food, or water during this travel, except to recharge powers and regain healing surges. During your journey, you are safe from hazards, attacks, and other dangers.

Of course, not all spells can be replicated. Which is ok.

One of the keys I think though is to let mythic martial abilities break the "1 action = 1 discrete move" that is most regular martial abililties and let them be reliable.

 

[HammerMan]

Which doesn't answer my question. I'm asking what a fighter should be expected to do when the wizard is prepping all those wonderful shenanigans spells. The wizard can look at the fighter and say "you do the killing, I'll screw with the story" never prep a combat spell while the fighter cannot say in return "no, you prep all blasting magic, I'll handle the out of combat shenanigans".

The question is is the scope and nature of the out of combat shenanigans the fighter should get that doesn't also impede the rogue's roll?

off the top of my head I would start with the gibs slap...(I know it had a diffrent name but that was what we called it based on NCIS) where when an ally fails a skill check you can let them reroll it. next the gibs stare (Yeah when 4e came out with skill powers a bunch of us where into NCIS) where with a look you can auto accomplish a social skill.

on the more physical end, I would go with "Move mountains" like literally at level 17 let a fighter just destroy/move large chucks of terrain (maybe not mountains...that was tongue in cheek) I will keep coming back to the 'devert river to clean stables' and stomp cause minor earth quake as my examples.

superman punches through time, superboy punches reality (retcon punch) and the excuse is they are just THAT strong... those should be crazy weird things, but they are pretty much on par with wish.

even at lower level an option (not every fighter, not every rogue, just an option that can be taken) to just duplicate knock and kick through magically sealed doors...

bat back spells... like just use your martial agility to counter spell

 

[TwoSix]

I really like counter arguments and wish more threads had them.

Counter: I should just be able to make my own argument and not argue the opposite view.

Counter-counter: Presenting and debating the strongest version of an opponent's argument is the best way to strengthen your own argument.

 

[payn]

I really like counter arguments and wish more threads had them.

Counter: I should just be able to make my own argument and not argue the opposite view.

Counter-counter: Presenting and debating the strongest version of an opponent's argument is the best way to strengthen your own argument.

Yes, this turn towards Rogerian argument is a welcome one.

 

[Shardstone]

I think we're getting closer to the crux of the issue.

What you're saying is that since martials have no options, they don't have the opportunity to feel like they wasted an option. Your also saying known casters also have that feeling, but I'll disagree with that because even known casters can switch out spells. At a much slower rate, mind, but upon each level up, if you realize there are no humanoids in your campaign, you can switch Charm Person out. Though, the same could be done in reverse where you switch Charm Person out for a combat spell only to realize that the next several sessions are humanoid interactions with little-to-no combat.

For martials, even if their utility is small and limited, they generally have them as flavorful options that can't be chosen out of a list. You choose Champion for their playstyle, Remarkable Athlete is a flavorful bonus, so it not having much use doesn't feel like you chose poorly because you never intended on it being used frequently anyways.

I understand this isn't a real suggestion, but how would this look like in-practice. Would "Destroy Mountain" and "Flow River" be a feature? If they were, and let's assume they were automatically given so it's not a choice-point, how many more features would they need or how specific/loose would they be.

For example, Destroy Mountain means they can break a mountain in, let's say, a minute. Okay, but does that mean all mountains are destroyed equally? Does this player now have the capability to basically destroy entire dungeons only because they reside in a mountain? Are we leaving this up to the DM or are we coming up with a rigorous system. Is this at-will or daily? Or based off of a resource? It would be odd if a fighter could destroy a mountain and kill 8 dragons in a day, but two mountains and no dragons are suddenly too much. Although, I'm fine with oddities like that.

The issue is that now the fighter can break mountains but can't cut trees. Or they can redirect rivers but can't swim against a current. Making them features will usually cause each feat of strength to be difficult to compare with similar but different feats of strength.

So then the alternative solution would be to rather let mountains have some form of destructibility and rivers have some subsystem that dictates how they can be redirected and trees have a set amount of damage until they're cut. All well and good, but that system becomes exhaustive quickly. Technically, that a loose-form subsystem like this is already baked into the rules. If a DM decides a mountain counts as a gargantuan object, there are rules to guide them, making it possible for a fighter to do so.

Though, I'm assuming that would be unsatisfactory, which leads back into creating a bigger subsystem just for destroying mountains. They certainly could spend their time on making this subsystem, though I don't see why they'd bother. It doesn't really have much to do with their core themes and adventures might never see a mountain in their campaign anyways. It adds pages to their books and expends more ink, but those pages and ink could be served to adding a more beloved subclass or that time could be spent creating hundreds of more iconic monsters.

For my own game system that is based off 5E, I created the following: Copy of Scavenger Tricks

Ignore the stuff about uses/stats, and look at the mechanics in the first three bodies of scavenger tricksets. Things like being able to grip something and never let it go, throw something that is Huge or smaller, obliterate any one single object in front of them for free, etc, have worked wonders in my games (of which I run 5 games right now for playtesting purposes) for giving martials a lot of strength.

Casters get these too, but they get a lot fewer of them. The overall power is above vanilla 5E, so I'm not saying implement this exact solution, but I created 15 physical abilities that are semi-magical and related to mythical warriors that could easily be added to any D&D game.