D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mort]

It seems like your objection is that because the rules for such a feature could be poorly designed, nothing even similar to such a feature would ever be worth attempting. That smells like a fallacy to me.

Here's an simple suggestion:
At 11th level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the fighter can choose a rare item. At 17th level, the item may be very rare. At 19th, it may be legendary. Flavor as desired.

Not exactly a crazy page count, nor did designing it break my brain.

Although, given the page count that some spells take up, one big fighter ability that requires a page (or, gasp, even two) doesn't strike me as all that unreasonable.

I like this. At the end of the day, casters get the equivalent of magic items through spells.

Fighters can get this opportunity through the meta. Say every x levels the DM asks for a wish list from the fighter that can include items up to y rarity. The DM then makes available an item to the fighter from that list (or something substantially similar). Easily explained in game as fighters are often fate magnets etc. Nice easy way to keep up parity and give the fighter more cool options.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

And the only "sacrifice" wizards make is being awesome and able to bend the rules of reality. Once you get past the first few levels they aren't even that squishy.

Yeah, I never understand this "sacrifice" argument. Mid level + D&D wizards have versatility, power, and basically no sacrifice compared to almost any fictional fantasy magic system. Fire and forget. Long rest. Do it again.

I haven't read Dragonlance in a while, but I remember Raistlin coughing up blood and having to be carried in a stretcher after casting sleep or fireball or something...

 

[Asisreo]

yes there is a range... a realy short one that goes from so basic no thought needed to slightly baisc.... not nothing on par with artficer or warlock let alone sorcerer... and cleric/druid/wizard blow them out of the water.

And I'm assuming you don't like that. But what, fundamentally, do you not like about that?

If there was a range of complexity that intercrossed the boundary of "martial" and "caster," why does that satisfy you? The champion and wizard would still exist? Why wouldn't the conversation then be "Champions are worse than wizards, it needs to be fixed?"

 

[Willie the Duck]

So tell me what level "spells" a fighter's shenanigans should replicate?

Okay, let's brainstorm on it.
Starting with the Transmutation school, a game that facilitates nonmagical OOC task resolution ought include options that vaguely replicate or address the same problems as:
Dakvision/Light/Dancing Lights
Fabricate
Fly/Earthbind*
Guidance/Enhance Ability
Jump
Knock
Longstrider/Expiditious Retreat/Haste
Magic Stone/Shillelagh
Magic Weapon
Mending
Mold Earth
Pass Without Trace
Passwall
Rope Trick/Leodmound's Hut
Spider Climb
Water Breathing/Water Walk
Zephyr Strike
*or simply have a response for the enemy that flies away. Archery builds have this, but it would be nice to see some expansion/burden lessoning for str or dex+s&b builds
**or other 'good improvised weapons' abilities

Of those, The skill system lets you climb walls, open locks, fix/build things, and find a safe place to rest. Blind fighting combat style (or a torch) lets you fight in darkness. Mobile feat lets you not get OA in combat. Really good swimming rolls might let you obviate the same problem as. All the skill-based ones, plus Guidance/Enhance Ability suffer the same limitation that a rogue will outdo a fighter at most all of them and a bard with Enhance Ability will outdo everyone. Plus anything skill related is gated behind 1) rolls, and 2) often the DM building the resolution mechanics themselves.

If some of these tasks were built into the general resolution mechanic, AND martials being given some disproportionately favorable buy-in to that mechanic, it would go a long way towards limiting the problem.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So then, what's wrong with magic, specifically, performing that role?

As I've made clear in my above post there's a difference between magic and spells. If I'm taking actions to cast specific spells with verbal, somatic, and material components and that people can counterspell then I'm an armoured wizard.

On the other hand 5e has multiple subclasses with magical effect that aren't spellcasters. The Echo Knight Fighter and the Storm Herald Barbarian don't wiggle their fingers and recite mystical mumbo jumbo while digging through their spell component pouches. They just are. I want a sufficiently high level fighter (possibly with a subclass) to be able to kick their way through the wall of a castle without ever referencing the Passwall spell or the any other cookie cutter spell. I want them to be just that powerful.

The Echo Knight gets this perfectly - it's magical without being a spellcaster. So's the Storm Herald. And a number of others - but they still all cap far too low.

 

[HammerMan]

It's not a question of level, or replication.

It's a question of getting things to do:

Big Heroic Leaps
Mighty feats of strength
Crashing blows that throw enemies around
clobbering hordes of cannon fodder critters around you in one great sweep.
Taunts, staredowns, battlecries that unnever, goad or terrify enemies.
smashing walls
lifting and throwing huge things
grabbing one guy and hitting his friend with him
being a danger to anyone in a room with both you and matter like Jackie Chan.
running down wild animals like Tarzan.
executing basic battlefield tactics with allies including rallies
having some kind of danger sense
not being threatened by sad goblins when they are the pinnacle of mortal existence (don't say they're not. This was a specific design choice)

great list

 

[Mort]

Yeah, I never understand this "sacrifice" argument. Mid level + D&D wizards have versatility, power, and basically no sacrifice compared to almost any fictional fantasy magic system. Fire and forget. Long rest. Do it again.

I haven't read Dragonlance in a while, but I remember Raistlin coughing up blood and having to be carried in a stretcher after casting sleep or fireball or something...

Yeah, and a mage casting a 9th level spell (a time travel something or other) nearly died from exhaustion doing so.

I've toyed with adding a stress system. Something like whenever the caster casts he has to make a constitution saving through (something like DC 12+ spell level) failure equals gaining half the spells level in exhaustion. Exhaustion is no joke in 5e and that would make casting have a serious cost.

 

[HammerMan]

I thought I'd pick up on this to say that you miss the corollary. The most interesting fighter subclasses add magic without adding spells. The Eldritch Knight is, to me, the least interesting of the actually good fighter subclasses (and actually less interesting than the Battlemaster). The Rune Knight and Psi Warrior I find about equal second place, with the most interesting subclass being the Echo Knight because it's magical and can do stuff without being a caster. Instead it is what it is. And it's not a coincidence I think that both these subclasses showed up in Tasha's - which is the book that the traditionalists seem to detest.

I don't know echo knight but psi knight is a great subclass and a move in the general right direction... combining battle master and psi knight with a few other higher level things at 11+ would be great. (JUST FYI iliked the up and down from the playtest better then the 2xprof for psi die but I don't dislike the 2xper prf)

 

[Neonchameleon]

And I'm assuming you don't like that. But what, fundamentally, do you not like about that?

If there was a range of complexity that intercrossed the boundary of "martial" and "caster," why does that satisfy you? The champion and wizard would still exist? Why wouldn't the conversation then be "Champions are worse than wizards, it needs to be fixed?"

Simple casters are needed for an obvious reason - people want to play casters but get intimidated by D&D rules. It can be done; I'm pretty sure that the most fun one player who's been playing since the 70s has had was a 4e elementalist pyromancer with all the straightforwardness of a "Throg smash" barbarian. He doesn't like juggling spells but wants to be magic.

And me, I want back my 4e tactical masters who understand the battlefield and manipulate it to their advantage and has the tools to do so.

Saying "fighters must be dumb fun, wizards must be complex" cuts off numerous characters.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Well, not exactly. It's less of an objection and more confusion.

I actually think such rules could be designed with great precision and do exactly as intended. If WoTC invested in doing it, they could achieve it relatively easily. My confusion is how that should be a priority for them enough to do it. How often are martial players truly wishing to jump extraordinarily far? And is the lack of these rules hindering the game objectively?

If it's a matter of personal preference, then it isn't a problem or issue that needs to be resolved. And throwing shade at WoTC for not providing utility martials could be seen as inappropriate. I'm asking, what turns this from a design that doesn't cater to everyone into a problem?

Like I said earlier in the thread, it's to give martials more mechanical agency in non-combat scenarios. It's not a problem in a hack and slash game. However, if you're running something like the new Witchlight adventure, where combat is less of a focus, and the fighter player is bored as a result, then it's a very clear and present issue. I can recall complaints about fighters being bored outside combat going even back to the days when the only forum available was the one they printed in Dragon magazine.

Granted, it's D&D, so I do think it's fair to assume combat as a given. That said, not all campaigns are equally focused on combat. Why do you think it would be a bad idea to offer better support for campaigns that are less combat-centric?