D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[HammerMan]

At level 1:

• A fighter has a basic speed of 30ft walking and in combat swings their sharpened piece of metal hard and fast at a target within its physical reach
• A wizard has a basic speed of 30ft walking and in combat can cast Burning Hands a couple of times per day.
• At level 20:
  • A fighter has a basic speed of 30ft walking and in combat swings their magically fast piece of metal harder and faster at a target within its physical reach
  • A wizard has possibly True Polymorphed itself permanently into an adult red dragon, which means they fly and can fire breath one round in three - and everything else they can do.

It's not that hard to argue that the level 1 characters are balanced with each other. It's possible but very hard to argue that the level 20 characters are balanced. It's ridiculous to argue that both are.

a level 20 wizard has 2 1st or 2nd level spells at will (including action denied control like tasha's laugh, instant miss like shield, that new one that gives disadvantage kinda, even just detect magic) a few dozen effects they can throw around 1st-4th level, a handful of 5th and 6th level major game changes (these alone if nothing else are heads and toes over a fighter) and 3 major reality altering spells

they also have cantrips that although slightly below an average fighters damage (and very below an optimized one) still let them at will hit for some damage.

all of that is before subclass/feat/items.

someone up thread said they can't heal, but vampiric touch, wither and bloom, and wish sure can.

clerics of 1/2 the domains and bards of at least 2 colleges can do all of that with good AC and weapons...

edit 1st and 2nd level spells mean the healing wither and bloom and hold person are on the table... how could I forget

 

[Neonchameleon]

But I do want to emphasize that really does kill the whole "low magic/grim and gritty" play style stone dead. If we're all cool with that, let's do it.

My first two major RPGs were GURPS and WFRP. Before posting on ENWorld I didn't think that anyone thought that D&D, a system in which there are character classes whose main thing is spellcasting and who automatically have spells, can cast them reliably, and with no chance of blowback was remotely low magic. And I didn't think anyone thought that a system where you could take a maximum strength hit from an orc with an axe and still be fully capable and would recover all consequences without a scar was remotely grim and gritty. And then there was always the absurd power scaling in D&D.

Or to sum up the "low magic/grim and gritty" play style is something that happened despite D&D. And cantrip spells should have finished off something it was never intended to do and never did well.

 

[Mort]

someone up thread said they can't heal, but vampiric touch, wither and bloom, and wish sure can.

If you allow Strixhaven (where wither and bloom is from) then wizards can also get a full suite of healing spells (cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify and greater restoration) so in quite a few campaigns that (long standing) boundary has been blown open. A variant human can get this at first level.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The 5e Barbarian is. Very few barbarian features are not connected to Rage.

That's my point. The class is mostly tied that Rage. And that Rage, via the Berserker subclass, cannot go more than 1 extra weapon attack without taking a level of exhaustion.

That's a problem with the berserker. If we look at the Path of the Beast then they can go more than one extra attack with their claws (but are only using one handed weapons to do it; still worth it).

 

[HammerMan]

If you allow Strixhaven (where wither and bloom is from) then wizards can also get a full suite of healing spells (cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify and greater restoration) so in quite a few campaigns that (long standing) boundary has been blown open. A variant human can get this at first level.

my fey lock took magic adept just to get cure wounds... later she multied into divine soul sorcerer to get more healing. but yea that one book helped (although came too late for that character)

 

[Guest 7034872]

If you allow Strixhaven (where wither and bloom is from) then wizards can also get a full suite of healing spells (cure wounds, lesser restoration, revivify and greater restoration) so in quite a few campaigns that (long standing) boundary has been blown open. A variant human can get this at first level.

So this makes it official, then: I will never, ever read, incorporate, or permit into my games anything of Strixhaven. A man's got to draw the line somewhere.

 

[HammerMan]

So this makes it official, then: I will never, ever read, incorporate, or permit into my games anything of Strixhaven. A man's got to draw the line somewhere.

too bad it has some GREAT things in it.

 

[Guest 7034872]

too bad it has some GREAT things in it.

I hear ya--I do. It's just...Wizards with healing, man? Nope. Too old of a coot to let that door open.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So this makes it official, then: I will never, ever read, incorporate, or permit into my games anything of Strixhaven. A man's got to draw the line somewhere.

As far as healing goes Wither and Bloom crosses the line less than Vampiric Touch and by using the same method - leaching life (in this case from an area) to heal a single target. And that "healing" lets them spend a hit dice and add your casting modifier.

It's a weird place to draw the line.

 

[Mind of tempest]

So this makes it official, then: I will never, ever read, incorporate, or permit into my games anything of Strixhaven. A man's got to draw the line somewhere.

fair, never been one for adding healing to arcane magic as it makes the wizard the be all end all class and that is bad game design.