D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[CreamCloud0]

I actually have no problem with that. D&D is high magic and high fantasy, so if every class is tapping into a higher power (magic, divinity, ki, psionics, etc) to fuel thier supernatural abilities, I'm ok with this.

I'm not ok with "my completely normal person can now do supernatural things because he killed enough goblins." Good for you, how's killing goblins allowing you to jump 60 ft or suplex dragons? If the answer is "because I have wellspring of magical power that makes me a superhero" we're cool.

Responding to this concept of 'mundane fighters' more than Remathilis themselves: Is not every inhabitant of 'your' DND world not on some level considered inherently magical? because magic is an inherent part of that world, can they not resist magical effects and make arcarna checks to sense magic despite being supposedly entirely nonmagical? A 'real world' human could no more perform the feats a fighter can perform like second wind or action surge could do any more than they could learn to fling fireballs or polymorph creatures by reading a magic book, but the fighter is held to the limits of the 'real world' simply because they do not actively interact with the magic systems [besides eldritch knight], IMO the fighter does use magic but it manifests in the way of superhuman physique and battle mastery, ways that only seem ordinary because they're not explicity magical.

Its been claimed earlier that hercules and the like could only perform the feats he did because he was part god or every other reason for the rest of them, but every resident of the fantasy world your adventures happen in by all rights should have magic in their bones and blood if only a little, but that trace amount of magic is good enough in my book to explain why they should be able to cut down foes like paper, inspire allies with their heroic cries or scale cliffs and leap across gorges.

 

[Mort]

Responding to this concept of 'mundane fighters' more than Remathilis themselves: Is not every inhabitant of 'your' DND world not on some level considered inherently magical? because magic is an inherent part of that world, can they not resist magical effects and make arcarna checks to sense magic despite being supposedly entirely nonmagical? A 'real world' human could no more perform the feats a fighter can perform like second wind or action surge could do any more than they could learn to fling fireballs or polymorph creatures by reading a magic book, but the fighter is held to the limits of the 'real world' simply because they do not actively interact with the magic systems [besides eldritch knight], IMO the fighter does use magic but it manifests in the way of superhuman physique and battle mastery, ways that only 'seem' ordinary because they're not explicity magical.

Its been claimed earlier that hercules and the like could only perform the feats he did because he was part god or every other reason for the rest of them, but every resident of the fantasy world your adventures happen in by all rights should have magic in their bones and blood if only a little, but that trace amount of magic is good enough in my book to explain why they should be able to cut down foes like paper, inspire allies with their heroic cries or scale cliffs and leap across gorges.

I've always liked this way of looking at gameworlds. The background world is magical - that should matter and manifest in various ways.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But I do want to emphasize that really does kill the whole "low magic/grim and gritty" play style stone dead. If we're all cool with that, let's do it.

Loads shotgun

Dibs!

 

[Remathilis]

do you really consider rage magic or is this just for a point as the wants change side has stated many times the fantastic doesn't equal the same thing as magic

I do. Rage is tapping into a primal energy found in nature using instinct. I gotta admit that it's borrowed some from 4e's idea of a primal striker barbarian, and it's why a barbarian who rages and gets animals features, summons storms, channels ancestral spirits or even funnels wild magic isn't a problem for me.

Magic isn't spells. Magic is anything that isn't a part of the normal world. So a barbarian's rage being "magic" isn't a slur, it's what justifies him shrugging off blows that would fell a fighter of equal measure. Bards tap into the magic of music. Rangers and druids tap into it magic of primal nature. Clerics and paladins channel the divine though faith. Sorcerers gain in though bloodline, warlocks though bargain, wizards and artificers though study. Monks though ki. Each class gets supernatural abilities (magic) somehow. Except fighters and rogues. Now if you want to give them "magic" to explain 60 ft jumps and changing the flow of rivers, as long as you are justifying it in the fiction, I can accept it. I don't when such things aren't justified by supernatural powers. Peak humans don't jump 60 ft, supernatural humans do.

So that's my stance: justify the magic they are using to do supernatural things and they can do supernatural things. If you want them utterly mundane (without a source of supernatural power) then they are limited to what a human can reasonably do.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I actually have no problem with that. D&D is high magic and high fantasy, so if every class is tapping into a higher power (magic, divinity, ki, psionics, etc) to fuel thier supernatural abilities, I'm ok with this.

I'm not ok with "my completely normal person can now do supernatural things because he killed enough goblins." Good for you, how's killing goblins allowing you to jump 60 ft or suplex dragons? If the answer is "because I have wellspring of magical power that makes me a superhero" we're cool.

But I do want to emphasize that really does kill the whole "low magic/grim and gritty" play style stone dead. If we're all cool with that, let's do it.

There is no low magic in D&D with PC casters. Player facing magic is present in every single encounter!

 

[TheSword]

So my question would be… what is the fundamental difference from a V,S spell that smashes folks back in a 10’ radius vs a the same effect in a non magical situation.

Please don’t say counterspell/anti magic aura as these are so corner case as to be negligible.

Is it all just flavor? In which case why not just adapt?

 

[Remathilis]

Loads shotgun

Dibs!

Don't THREATEN me with a good time!

 

[Asisreo]

I think a lot of us have given reasons in this thread, but to be explicit:

• It to me makes for much more consistent and coherent worldbuilding when in a magical setting there are things that are larger than life or even supernatural that aren't spells.
• It to me makes for much more consistent and coherent worldbuilding that people have learned to integrate supernatural abilities in things they've trained to excel at
• We're basing the archetypes on action movies and mythology anyway - not delivering this is not following through on promises given.
• It doesn't make a mockery of the level system in which the fighter doesn't get a single new ability (only extra uses of existing ones) from levels 12-19.
• It doesn't have the fighter basically being a glorified commoner out of combat at all levels.
• It leads to a wider variety of characters I personally find engaging, interesting, and inspiring; I know that others think the way I do here.
• It leads to options that have visibly made my friends have more fun when gaming

Frankly, this case feels overwhelming to me.

There are some of these points I would like to see expanded on. But I will say points 5 and 6 are fair enough.

However, I should respond to you in kind. If we're to understand each other, I should put my points in:

I've seen no arguments against that I recall that don't fit these headings.

Arguments on my side would be:

• It's inefficient if it isn't a big priority. Thinking back to original 5e, before extra books and adventures, we had the three core books and the starter set. Slowly, we've been getting a variety of content that I had liked. Adventures like Curse of Strahd, Tombs of Annihilation, and Icespire Peak. We've also gotten extra books with good new content that isn't just new classes or subclasses. We've gotten more DM and player guidance with Xanathar's and Tasha's. We've gotten more monsters and lore from Volo's and Mordekainen. But there's still much more to be done. We still don't have a 5e planescape. We still are missing very iconic monsters and dungeons that could be moved into 5e. I'd prefer if the resources were allocated to producing more of what they have been rather than fixing something I've never noticed broken.
• It doesn't align with the core themes of D&D. That being, Magic is everywhere and it's vital for adventurers. The game isn't Pathfinder or Dungeon World. They have themes with which they abide by, and each makes them distinct. Preserving the themes keeps them from competing against each other through an arms-race type competition. In D&D, the theme that magic is necessary and important and powerful does get undermined when a group of nonmagical beings are able to resolve world-threatening challenges without any magical assistance. In that case, magic is useful but it's not important.

I haven't seen an earnest argument saying they don't like other people's fun. Please, go into this discussion assuming good faith. Even if you challenge the argument, assume it's being made with honesty.

 

[Minigiant]

Loads shotgun

Dibs!

Don't THREATEN me with a good time!

Hey man.

I'm okay with the high level swordsmaster who is the "swordy equivalent" of an archmage slashing through steel doors.slashing apart blade traps, and slashing locked checked chests with a Master Stroke action.

Pick Locks and Disable Traps the Real way.

 

[Azzy]

Again, if you want to give fighters and rogues a source of magical power like rage or ki,

Rage isn't magical at all, and qi/ki (life essence) is only tenuously magical (in fiction where ki and traditional magic both exist, ki is typically distinct from magic and/or treated as wholly nonmagical).