D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[HammerMan]

Fighter dex is low. A fighter by level 10 could have a 19 str, 18 dex, 16 con if he wants. Or 20, 18, 15. Which is a great idea since you KNOW there will be flying creatures and you will be using a bow a lot. If the fighter rolls stats, there's a very good chance those numbers are even better.

is that with no feats... aren't feats a main argument for how fighters get good at other things?

 

[Shardstone]

Can someone sum up with the last 10 pages were about. I really have lost track of this conversation

 

[HammerMan]

In a game without any fights… yes. That is lunacy.

so people who want to play non casters are idiots suffering from lunacy... please keep going, this is telling

 

[TwoSix]

A lot of people try to peg the fighter low like that to make the class look worse than the class is. With all the extra ASIs, the smart fighter will have an 18 dex by 10th level and be kicking flying monster rear when it arrives.

Smart fighters are going Dex by default, so they should really have a 20.

I'd argue Str-focused fighters are probably going to lowball Dex (heavy armor), and put the saved points in Con/Wis instead. Dex saves are the least problematic to consistently fail, in my experience.

 

[Maxperson]

If the wizard is using cantrips and the non-archer fighter is using his bow, you've probably won/lost the fight anyway. Tier 1 at-will balance isn't particularly meaningful, unless it's wildly out of line (like a PAM barbarian).

There's no such thing as a non-archer fighter in the base game. Fighting styles don't add that much, so it comes down to stats and the fighter can and should have both high strength and high dex.

If you're adding in feats, the stats will be a hair lower, but the fighter can have both great weapon fighting and sharpshooter to go with his 18 str, 16, dex and 15 con.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Can someone sum up with the last 10 pages were about. I really have lost track of this conversation

white room math and bickering mostly.

 

[Maxperson]

is that with no feats... aren't feats a main argument for how fighters get good at other things?

Without feats. Feats are explicitly an optional rule, so I don't include them when discussing default fighters. With feats the stats drop a hair, but by 10th level could be 18 str, 16 dex, 15 con, great weapon master and sharpshooter.

 

[HammerMan]

Can someone sum up with the last 10 pages were about. I really have lost track of this conversation

fighter can when optimized for damage out damage casters.
casters have times that they do not have the right win button
casters some times deal with monsters saving for half, saving for no effect, or saving so that they can not keep them SoS for more then 1 round
casters have 1-2hp less per level

so that invalidates all arguments that fighters (or any martial characters) wanting cool things somehow

 

[Mind of tempest]

fighter can when optimized for damage out damage casters.
casters have times that they do not have the right win button
casters some times deal with monsters saving for half, saving for no effect, or saving so that they can not keep them SoS for more then 1 round
casters have 1-2hp less per level

so that invalidates all arguments that fighters (or any martial characters) wanting cool things somehow

I know right it is not like buffing martials will lead to casters suffering somehow?

 

[HammerMan]

I know right it is not like buffing martials will lead to casters suffering somehow?

my understanding is that it will...

I still imagine a 20th level champion fighter (but with only 10hd, and magic items for a 10th level character) could do well with a war domain cleric of 10th level... but with the cleric still having more options and more 1 button win buttons... so I'm not sure that power helps at all. Giving the fighter MORE POWER doesn't really address the issue.