D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[TwoSix]

Every fighter in every game has a +1 weapon by 5th level at the latest. Pretending otherwise is willful blindness.

In my current game (where I'm a player), only one PC out of 7 has a magic weapon, and we're level 5. Table variance around magical items is absolutely a thing.

 

[TheSword]

unless you run the 2 most resent adventures... both can be combat free and most times will be combat lite.

Then frankly intentionally playing a fighter is not the most sensible choice in a campsign without fights. It’s kind of in the name. Nobody makes you chose the class.

 

[Maxperson]

Are you forgetting to factor in the accuracy difference?

The accuracy thing is overblown. If the fighter is at +2 and the wizard is at +4, that 10% extra to hit just means 1 more hit every 10 attacks, or if you're using cantrips(2.5 full 4 round fights). That piddly amount of extra damage isn't that meaningful.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Starting with magic items (and selecting them yourself) is not the same as not finding magic items. Xanathars guide makes it clear that major items come online at or soon after 5th. If you want to be overly harsh to fighters then of course you can remove magic weapons. They’re pretty ubiquitous in published campaigns though.

All that is well and good, my point was simply blanket statements like the one you made are nearly always wrong (see what I did there? ). Lots of groups don't award magic items in the first tier much, if at all, and "by 5th level" certainly not "every fighter" is going to have a +1 weapon.

 

[FrogReaver]

The accuracy thing is overblown. If the fighter is at +2 and the wizard is at +4, that 10% extra to hit just means 1 more hit every 10 attacks, or if you're using cantrips(2.5 full 4 round fights). That piddly amount of extra damage isn't that meaningful.

I agree it’s not much damage. But It’s enough for the cantrip wizard to do more than the 14 dex longbow fighter.

 

[Mort]

The accuracy thing is overblown. If the fighter is at +2 and the wizard is at +4, that 10% extra to hit just means 1 more hit every 10 attacks, or if you're using cantrips(2.5 full 4 round fights). That piddly amount of extra damage isn't that meaningful.

I did the math (please check it, fully admit it was fast) the fighter is ahead at 1 (but not by much), only even at 5 (ahead if his secondary weapon is +1 but not by much) and even at level 11 (assuming a +1 secondary weapon for the fighter). Considering the many options available to the wizard on top of just using a cantrip(sure the fighter might have superiority dice or some such, but that's a very limited resource too).

 

[TwoSix]

The accuracy thing is overblown. If the fighter is at +2 and the wizard is at +4, that 10% extra to hit just means 1 more hit every 10 attacks, or if you're using cantrips(2.5 full 4 round fights). That piddly amount of extra damage isn't that meaningful.

It's not really piddly, though. If your normal hit rate is 50%, increasing it by 10% means your total DPR goes up by 20%.

Edit: Assuming a 1d10 firebolt at 20 Int, and a 1d8 longbow at 14 Dex, firebolt always does more damage up until firebolt misses only on a 1 and the longbow misses on a 3-. Firebolt is around 15% more damage for normal hit ranges (about 50-70% hit rate for the firebolt).

 

[Undrave]

2) Goading attack is a Battlemaster feature. What if the Fighter isn't a Battlemaster? If the Fighter's ability to do its job is completely dependent on choosing the right subclass then the fighter base class is flawed.

Goading attacks should have been a basic game action: Whenever you hit a creature with a melee attack, you should be able to goad them with a bonus action if you share a language. Then you give the Fighter the ability to do it without a bonus action and as long as the target has A language (no need to share it with them).

Thanks I should have double checked the damage die instead of posting from a middle of the night fog walk but the original problem with how is damaging being calculated still stands because a fighter with 14 dex & longbow out damages 20int firebolt because (4.5+2)*x is more than (5.5+nothing)*x

since firebolt doesn't add int to damage (it does help hit though) a long bow with a 15 or less dex is 1d8+2 (min 3 max 11 avg6) what level do we need for a d10 cantrip to match that? 1st is 1d10 so min 1 max 10 avg 5... already close but not there. 5th is 2d10 so min 2 max 20 average 11... oh shoot they just rocketed past. 11th is 3d10 so min 3 max 30 avg 16 and 17th is 4d10...

wait what about the d6 plus control cantrips... 1d6 min 3 max 6 average 3 (well below long bow) 2d6 min 2 max 12 average 7 (wait again at 5th level it looks close)

Don't forget the lower accuracy of having 14 instead of 20.

and how many manuvers can fighters know... I'll wait well you look that up

And let's not forget that the maneuvers don't scale up. The ones you get later are just the ones you didn't care to take at level 3 because they weren't good enough.

A thing I noticed some time ago, Rogues vs Druids in stealth and scouting. The former is usually regarded as the stealthy boy that can explore ahead for the party, but Druids are just better from what I can tell.

At level 3 with the Pass Without Trace spell, they can give themselves and the whole party a +10 to Stealth. If they take proficiency in it and have an okay Dex, even considerably higher level Rogues won't have a bonus as high. Then they have Wildshape that lets them turn into small inconspicuous animals, letting them infiltrate places that even a Rogue with great stealth would have trouble with, and after Tasha's they can also use Find Familiar with their Wildshape, another great scouting option. Reliable Talent can even it out, but by then Druid has the high level spells to put them ahead, imo.

I stopped playing a Druid because it was TOO GOOD and too boring as a result.

 

[Maxperson]

Even if you take into account accuracy?

Level 1: Average monster AC is 13:

Wizard (INT 16): +5 to hit, Chance to hit 65%. So average damage 3.58
Fighter (Dex 14): +4 to hit Chance to hit 60%. Average damage 3.9

Fighter is ahead here, but not by much (not going to have a +1 bow yet)

Level 5: Average monster AC is 15

Wizard (INT 18) +7 to hit, Chance to hit 65%, Average damage (assuming no Int added) 7.15
Fighter (Still Dex 14) +5 to hit, chance to hit 55%, Average damage 7.15

Wizard has pulled level, using a cantrip.

Assuming the fighter gets a +1 Bow (a weapon that's not his primary focus but ok)

+6 to hit, chance to hit 60%, average damage 7.8, higher - but not by much.

Level 11: Average monster AC is 17

Wizard (Int 20) +9 to hit, Chance to hit is 65%, Average damage is 10.73
Fighter (Dex 14) +7 (Assuming he actually got a +1 bow), Chance to hit 55%, average damage is 10.73

So par, even assuming a magic weapon.

I don't think that's favorable to the fighter at range. The wizard has many, many other options if he so chooses - the fighter does not without outside conditions.

This was pretty quick and dirty - welcome anyone checking my math.

Fighter dex is low. A fighter by level 10 could have a 19 str, 18 dex, 16 con if he wants. Or 20, 18, 15. Which is a great idea since you KNOW there will be flying creatures and you will be using a bow a lot. If the fighter rolls stats, there's a very good chance those numbers are even better.

 

[TheSword]

I did the math (please check it, fully admit it was fast) the fighter is ahead at 1 (but not by much), only even at 5 (ahead if his secondary weapon is +1 but not by much) and even at level 11 (assuming a +1 secondary weapon for the fighter). Considering the many options available to the wizard on top of just using a cantrip(sure the fighter might have superiority dice or some such, but that's a very limited resource too).

I think the point is that the fighter doesn’t have to be good at this one thing they have expended no resources in. The point is they can do something - usually more as a party than the creature they will are fighting can. Therefore creatures that stay flying and keep foes at range are relatively rare.

This math while looking correct totally ignores benefits from subclass. Start adding reroll hits and +1d12 damage and the numbers swing well towards the fighter.

I mean, take a look through the monster manual for flying creatures then see what proportion actually have reliable ranged attacks as good as their melee attacks.