D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[nevin]

er I mean foundation of fighter at high level expected lots of magic items. paladins and rangers have other things that boost them at high level.

 

[Oofta]

Personally I think the path forward in 6e is to

• Make fighters the fighting style collectors over the feat collectors
• Have fighting style level or scale over time
• Display the fighter's better combat over clerics rogues and bards with its access of fighting styles and breaking base combat limatations (aka Str Fighters throw multiple spears harder and farther do to having Defense, Great Weapon Fighting, Thrown Fighting, and Two Weapon Fighting at level 8)

I can see a lot of options. Get rid of the limit on number of weapons you can throw. Make sharpshooter an option for thrown weapons. Give all fighters another fighting style at 10th level (champion fighters would get 2). Make some fighting styles that can't be taken until 10th level or so that are also more powerful.

I think quite a bit can be done without changing the base nature of the fighter.

 

[Minigiant]

I literally do not understand why you would think this. Both require them to recognise and accept that the current fighter is lacking, but your solutions assumes rather unprecedented amount of effort and resources to put the solve the issue, whilst at the same time leaving the current fighter lacking. It would be an utterly bizarre way to attempt to solve the issue.

Fixing the fighter requires thinking the fighter needs fixing and struggling to fix it within the system.

Creating a Warblade requires binging Rurouni Kenshin and other samurai and combat anime and saying "WRITE THAT DOWN! WRITE THAT DOWN!"

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Fixing the fighter requires thinking the fighter needs fixing and struggling to fix it within the system.

Creating a Warblade requires binging Rurouni Kenshin and other samurai and combat anime and saying "WRITE THAT DOWN! WRITE THAT DOWN!"

But doing that as a separate class requires the assumption that the current classes do not do that sufficiently. Samurai and Kensei exist. You may not like how they work, but they exist. You again want them to create a duplicates of already existing things. I don't want that, it is the worst possible form of class bloat, and I hope and believe WotC recognises that too.

 

[Minigiant]

But doing that as a separate class requires the assumption that the current classes do not do that sufficiently. Samurai and Kensei exist. You may not like how they work, but they exist. You again want them to create a duplicates of already existing things. I don't want that, it is the worst possible form of class bloat, and I hope and believe WotC recognises that too.

Samurai and Kensei can't shoot air slices, air dash, flash step, or infuse their swords with the spirit of battle.

Again. You can't say "the fighter doesn't do mythical martial" then say "well what would there be for a new class to do?"

The question is not class bloat. WOTC is bloating on subclasses as is. The question is whether you know what is missing to made the decision.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Samurai and Kensei can't shoot air slices, air dash, flash step, or infuse their swords with the spirit of battle.

If we want this to be a game in which sufficient level of practice and weapon mastery allows people to do such things, then those classes should at high level access such capabilities.

Again. You can't say "the fighter doesn't do mythical martial" then say "well what would there be for a new class to do?"

The question is not class bloat. WOTC is bloating on subclasses as is. The question is whether you know what is missing to made the decision.

I'm saying high level fighter should do mythical martial and low level one shouldn't. And that to me seems far more coherent in a zero to hero game than level one superheroes and level twenty townsguard.

We can do this all week, and I doubt we will convince each other. We want different things.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I love the setting and I kickstarted the savage world stuff but it is still in a box... i have not played it

It's quite good IMO other than some proud nails like rail guns needing to be majorly nerfed. Non-casters are also on a solid footing vs casters thanks to cyberware, magi-tech, etc (which interferes w magic and psionics). The "mundane" guys basically start at 10th level, and tiered advantages/chains mean that a caster can't take the same feat equivalent.

I never thought I'd see the day where a freakin vagabond or rogue scientist was viable compared to a mind melter or dragon.

 

[Micah Sweet]

and do you know a third party who would listen to us?

My favorite 3rd party publishers are EN Publishing and Mage Hand Press. I would start with those.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But doing that as a separate class requires the assumption that the current classes do not do that sufficiently. Samurai and Kensei exist. You may not like how they work, but they exist. You again want them to create a duplicates of already existing things. I don't want that, it is the worst possible form of class bloat, and I hope and believe WotC recognises that too.

I'm not sure why "class bloat" actually bothers you, to be honest. Why would it matter to you or your game that there are new classes out there you don't have to use? What problems do their existence cause for you?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

IMO, even with a computer program someone has to weight the various scenarios. In that regard it shares the same limitations as what @EzekielRaiden has proposed.

By the way @EzekielRaiden I'm game. I propose that I'll calculate Fighter damage for a few different variations of Fighters. Something like no Feats or magic items, +feats, +magic items, etc. I'll also calculate one Fighter build of your choice. I don't think a single Fighter build will ever do justice to the comparison because people's starting point for what is the best starting point differs so much.

I'll post some suggested ground rules in a bit. To kick things off I suggest we look at level 11 unless you have some objection.

11 is fine. I may need a few days...I usually have some trouble sleeping but these last three days have been fantastically bad. I've got some preliminary ideas though.