D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[tetrasodium]

If the consensus is that a high level fighter is underpowered (and it is) then you can just give it new class features that do not replace anything. And they have even done this before. Some optional class stuff in Tasha's are just additions, not swaps.

The question of what to give it & how much is important, a lot of the tasha's stuff you note tends to be things like "you can choose this instead" or "you can swap the thing you have with a different thing you could have chosen under various circumstances(ie fighting styles cantrips etc)". Adding stuff can only go so far & still be reasonably balanced without needing to subtract or dial down existing things

 

[Minigiant]

If the consensus is that a high level fighter is underpowered (and it is) then you can just give it new class features that do not replace anything. And they have even done this before. Some optional class stuff in Tasha's are just additions, not swaps.

The fighter just got new fighting styles and the ability to swap them.

The only class that was "fixed" and received actual power in optional class features was the ranger and it took 5 years.

I think it's more likely WOTC breaks down and makes a Warblade or Warlord before it fixes the Fighter or makes a martial subsystem that scales.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That is just normal human behaviour of complicating relatively simple things so that they become even more difficult to solve.


It is not sensible use for WotC time to write several overlapping classes to be banned whilst leaving the problems into existing classes. Now given that, there is practically zero chance that your ideas would actually be implemented. Granted, prospects of them fixing the exiting classes are not that great either, but I'd imagine that they at least try to do that to some extent for the anniversary edition.

That's why third party is the way to go. As you say, WotC isn't going to do this stuff.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I don't fully agree. But alot depends on whether we view the game on the individual PC level or on the PC group level. Melee has alot of inherent advantages on the group level that always get left out of these discussions. Easier advantage (prone, reckless attack, etc). Disincentivizing enemies from targeting backline allies (combination of DM roleplaying the NPCs and OA's). Assisting other frontline characters survival by making it more likely they spread their attacks over more PC's. Dealing more damage with OA's when enemies move by them. These aren't trivial advantages IMO.

Also, most ranged play assumes the party is playing very tactically to gain big advantages. That's not the case for most groups IMO. The less tactically minded the party the less inherent advantages ranged has.

Point isn't necessarily that melee equals ranged, but their advantages are often not even considered.

Sure I'd agree that melee has advantages. I don't think they hold up well vs the freedom of positioning and target selection that ranged combat offers. And this combines poorly with the incremental threat a melee combatant must take on since their movement is typically going to be spent putting themselves in a position to do damage, it is difficult to also position defensively (of course this varies based on encounter setup).

The problem is that even once they've approached such that they are in melee with one creature (and likely within range of many more enemies than their ranged companions are) they aren't a significantly greater damage threat than those ranged companions shooting safely from 60 or whatever to several hundred feet away.

 

[Oofta]

IMO. the Fighter has a slew of even bigger potential disadvantages.

Besides, the goal isn't to bake in every assumption it's to create a reasonable semblance of how the classes compare at damage (the only thing the fighter actually does well).

And ultimately, even if the Wizard is better at damage in general due to AOE, that doesn't mean a single target specialist wouldn't also be worthwhile to a party.

But the problem I see is that the fighter not only needs to "compete" with the wizard that focuses on damage, but also with the one that focuses on out of combat utility all while the wizard never runs out of spell slots. Meanwhile the fighter can't assume magic items which gives wizards a slight bump in power while giving a significant increase to fighters.

If the wizard can go nova and the circumstances are in their favor then they come out ahead. Or maybe I'm the only DM that has forest fires start because wizards cast fireball in the woods and has more than 2 encounters per long rest while also not giving casters enough foresight to prep the appropriate spells.

EDIT: related to this, I think strength based fighters need ranged options. Bow are versatile in my game and they can throw as many javelins as they want.

 

[Mind of tempest]

That's why third party is the way to go. As you say, WotC isn't going to do this stuff.

and do you know a third party who would listen to us?

 

[tetrasodium]

and do you know a third party who would listen to us?

I'm not sure what you want. How is this?

• Levelup5e
  Spoiler

  

  
  [*]

  
• Anime5e
  Spoiler

  [*]Published under the Open Game License, this single Anime 5E core role-playing game book contains everything you need to start creating and playing anime and manga RPG adventures. It works as an excellent expansion and companion to other Fifth Edition books as well, offering a unique perspective on traditional fantasy tabletop gaming. Whether you run with Anime 5E by itself or integrate it with other 5E resources, you'll be well prepared to unleash dynamic and dramatic action at your gaming table!
  
  This gorgeous volume offers a solid 272 full-colour pages with over 100 beautiful illustrations from talented artist across the world. Anime 5E features a laminated hardcover with a durable Smyth-sewn binding that allows your book to easily lay flat and stay open to any page.
  
  Inside the pages of Anime 5E, you'll find:
  
  
  [*]A flexible, point-based approach to character features that lets you acquire the specific elements you envision for your character
  [*]14 new races that cover a wide range of anime archetypes
  [*]Guidelines and rules for playing characters other then medium-size
  [*]14 new classes that offer incredible diversity in abilities and talents
  [*]Rebalanced standard Fifth Edition classes to level out character abilities
  [*]70 wide-ranging character features (called Attributes), each with multiple ranks that expand their scope and utility
  [*]36 character flaws (called Defects) that return points to your character so they can power up in different ways to compensate
  [*]50 skill proficiencies that build upon the original Fifth Edition offerings and expand into numerous non-combat scenarios, talents, and trades
  [*]A veritable treasure trove of combat enhancements and options, including called shots, critical hits and failures, tactical actions, range penalties, dramatic feats, and more
  [*]An innovative approach to calculating the Challenge Rating of monsters that considers their full range of features, abilities, and talents – both in and out of combat
  [*]Dozens of example adventuring gear, items of power, and fascinating daily devices
  [*]Rebuilds of 14 standard fantasy monsters across the Challenge Rating spectrum
  [*]
  Check out the gorgeous and evocative wrap-around cover below by the talented Chabibit, and then click to download the Anime 5E table of contents so you can preview what's inside.

• Maybe stargate the rpg
  Spoiler

  [*]Join the Stargate Program!
  
  The Tau'ri need your help in the fight against the Goa'uld. Stationed on an undisclosed location under the control of Stargate Command, you will start your training as a new recruit into the Stargate program.
  
  The Stargate SG-1 Roleplaying Game is a sci-fi tabletop game where you assume the role of a member of Stargate Command. As an SG team member, you and your teammates will go on missions, guided by a Gatemaster, in the fight against the Goa'uld and other threats. The game is based on the D&D 5th Edition Open Gaming License. Backing this project makes you among the first to join up with the Stargate program at the Phoenix Site!
  
  Look for a Pre-Order and PDF version of the Core Rulebook in our STORE
  [*]

 

[Minigiant]

EDIT: related to this, I think strength based fighters need ranged options. Bow are versatile in my game and they can throw as many javelins as they want.

Personally I think the path forward in 6e is to

• Make fighters the fighting style collectors over the feat collectors
• Have fighting style level or scale over time
• Display the fighter's better combat over clerics rogues and bards with its access of fighting styles and breaking base combat limatations (aka Str Fighters throw multiple spears harder and farther do to having Defense, Great Weapon Fighting, Thrown Fighting, and Two Weapon Fighting at level 8)

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The fighter just got new fighting styles and the ability to swap them.

The only class that was "fixed" and received actual power in optional class features was the ranger and it took 5 years.

Right. But it happened. So they could do the same for fighter. And I'm sure they're evaluating what to update for the anniversary edition right now. They have actually done surveys about the classes. Did you notice what they didn't ask? They didn't ask "would you like a completely new parallel fighter class?" Because that's not an option that they're likely to even consider.

I think it's more likely WOTC breaks down and makes a Warblade or Warlord before it fixes the Fighter or makes a martial subsystem that scales.

I literally do not understand why you would think this. Both require them to recognise and accept that the current fighter is lacking, but your solutions assumes rather unprecedented amount of effort and resources to put the solve the issue, whilst at the same time leaving the current fighter lacking. It would be an utterly bizarre way to attempt to solve the issue.

 

[nevin]

If the consensus is that a high level fighter is underpowered (and it is) then you can just give it new class features that do not replace anything. And they have even done this before. Some optional class stuff in Tasha's are just additions, not swaps.

you make it sound like features haven't been added, taken away and added and taken away for multiple iterations of the game. I can add features all day long. Whether they work they way the way I want them too and whether the players will be willing to accept them are always iffy at best. If it were that easy it would have been fixed in 2nd or 3rd edition. A large portion of the fighter's problem is they limited the number of magic items and the entire foundation of the fighter since 1e was magic items. A wizard doesn't get real upgrades in power from magic items, usually just the ability to cast more spells. (which can be huge). limiting magic items on pure martial classes was a serious downgrade in power at high levels.