D&D 5E Truly Understanding the Martials & Casters discussion (+)

[Mind of tempest]

No. They're different concept, not an existing concept except super.



You listed a bunch of characters that clearly match already existing D&D classes, except some of them have superpowers. But having level one demigod is an incoherent concept, just like level 20 dirt-farmer is. This simply is not how D&D works nor how it should work. There are games that are designed around playing superheroes, even fantasy demigods like in Exalted. And that makes sense as in those games are not designed around 'from zero to hero' levelling experience; the starting characters are already really powerful, so it makes sense for them to be demigods. But 'level one Hercules' is not a thing that makes sense, it cannot and shouldn't exist.

I think minigiants point is more that it is unlikely that we will ever gain the proper system of classes becoming more awsome as they level up thus just make a class for it.

 

[Minigiant]

IMO, farm boy wouldn't be the class it would be the background.
The noble family with super strength wouldn't be a class in D&D, it would be a mythical Boon.

Maybe that would be a good way to make mythical fighters is to create a mythical Boon subsystem.

That's the main problem.

Normally it would be a

1. Feat tree,
2. Prestige class
3. Adjusted race
4. Theme powers
5. Multiclass subclass

None of those exist in 5e. It's why the mythical martial is upsetting in 5e to some. The tools to made them don't exist in 5e. Classes are the only scaling aspect of 5e.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

That's the main problem.

Normally it would be a

1. Feat tree,
2. Prestige class
3. Adjusted race
4. Theme powers
5. Multiclass subclass

None of those exist in 5e. It's why the mythical martial is upsetting in 5e to some. The tools to made them don't exist in 5e. Classes are the only scaling aspect of 5e.

Just give certain classes (or at least some of their subclasses) some mythic features at higher levels. That is literally all that is needed, not writing several completely new classes with their subclasses to overlap with existing classes.

 

[TheSword]

For a Wizard, more spells is pretty much more power, it's their whole thing. Take Fey Touched, you get Misty Step, which you'd definitely want anyway, and an enchantment or divination 1st level spell, say, Silvery Barbs.

You get teleportation and the ability to make an enemy reroll their saving throw against your spell, then have them always prepared to use with spell slots, and a free use for each. Both are useful pretty much through all levels, and allow you to prepare other spells instead, it's two new spells since those two are so good you'd definitely want them annyway.

A Wizard isn't like a Fighter, they don't have one thing they'll always want to do, sometimes damage, sometimes save or suck, sometimes buffing, having more spells gives them more options to use and makes them more powerful overall.
As always, more choices is more power for a Wizard. Say, at-will Mage Armor saves them slots to use on other stuff or Devil's Sight counters the weakness of non darkvision for variant humans, so they don't have to carry stealth-ruining torches or waste a prepared spell and slot on the Darkvision spell.

I was thinking more about Subtle Spell, you can use it twice. Great for casting while not being noticed, or to not be counterspelled if you're fighting another caster.

It definitely ties back to the spell casting power, since it'll save you slots. If you have more AC, they'll hit you less, you'll have to Shield less, and have more spells to cast later. More HP means you survive longer, so if you get attacked there's less chance you'll be KO'd, drop your concentration spells, and, like, die.

See I don’t personally think spell slots and the adventuring day is the greatest limit on the spellcaster because the 6-8 encounter day isn’t really a thing outside of large dungeons.

Sure at early levels spells known and slots are massive limiting factors. However soon action economy is the big limit. You can’t get around the fundamental challenge of one spell per round. All you can do is make these spells more powerful. That comes with higher slots but those are the ones that are extremely limited not an extra misty step. Once you get to level 8 an extra slot for misty step every so often makes little or no difference.

Very few feats and powers actually make the effect of the spell more powerful. Aside from extra int increasing the DC.

 

[Minigiant]

Just give certain classes (or at least some of their subclasses) some mythic features at higher levels. That is literally all that is needed, not writing several completely new classes with their subclasses to overlap with existing classes.

This discusssion wouldn't be 50+ pages and the 5th of its kind if it were that simple.

It's easy to shunt it all into its own class and let them ban it.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

This discusssion wouldn't be 50+ pages and the 5th of its kind if it were that simple.

That is just normal human behaviour of complicating relatively simple things so that they become even more difficult to solve.

It's easy to shunt it all into its own class and let them ban it.

It is not sensible use for WotC time to write several overlapping classes to be banned whilst leaving the problems into existing classes. Now given that, there is practically zero chance that your ideas would actually be implemented. Granted, prospects of them fixing the exiting classes are not that great either, but I'd imagine that they at least try to do that to some extent for the anniversary edition.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

See I don’t personally think spell slots and the adventuring day is the greatest limit on the spellcaster because the 6-8 encounter day isn’t really a thing outside of large dungeons.

Sure at early levels spells known and slots are massive limiting factors. However soon action economy is the big limit. You can’t get around the fundamental challenge of one spell per round. All you can do is make these spells more powerful. That comes with higher slots but those are the ones that are extremely limited not an extra misty step. Once you get to level 8 an extra slot for misty step every so often makes little or no difference.

That's fair, but I'm talking mainly on the assumption of the 6-8 stuff people keep saying all the time, if it's short they can just nova all the time and not make a difference, which is where the Fighter gets overshadowed pretty easily, and they can spend the spare lower level ones on utility out of combat anyway.

 

[FrogReaver]

That is just normal human behaviour of complicating relatively simple things so that they become even more difficult to solve.


It is not sensible use for WotC time to write several overlapping classes to be banned whilst leaving the problems into existing classes. Now given that, there is practically zero chance that your ideas would actually be implemented. Granted, prospects of them fixing the exiting classes are not that great either, but I'd imagine that they at least try to do that to some extent for the anniversary edition.

Optional rules for current classes or an optional subsystem for them seems the easiest way ti design such things into the existing game.

 

[Minigiant]

It is not sensible use for WotC time to write several overlapping classes to be banned whilst leaving the problems into existing classes. Now given that, there is practically zero chance that your ideas would actually be implemented. Granted, prospects of them fixing the exiting classes are not that great either, but I'd imagine that they at least try to do that to some extent for the anniversary edition.

Having the DM deal with the dirty work is the current philosophy of WOTC's 5e. Attempting to get classes to all work in a seperate subsystem when they weren't designed to is harder.

This is why the Strixhaven subclasses bombed out. The classes were not designed to interact with any subsystem outside of spells.

It'salso why alternate class features might not work. The fighter doesn't really have many actual class features to swap and all of what it does have.... scales terribly.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Having the DM deal with the dirty work is the current philosophy of WOTC's 5e. Attempting to get classes to all work in a seperate subsystem when they weren't designed to is harder.

This is why the Strixhaven subclasses bombed out. The classes were not designed to interact with any subsystem outside of spells.

It'salso why alternate class features might not work. The fighter doesn't really have many actual class features to swap and all of what it does have.... scales terribly.

If the consensus is that a high level fighter is underpowered (and it is) then you can just give it new class features that do not replace anything. And they have even done this before. Some optional class stuff in Tasha's are just additions, not swaps.