D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Stormonu]

One thing I've noticed is that back in the day everyone used to roll their dice differently.

I can't really describe it, but I know it was a better way of rolling dice than how people do it nowadays.

Damn dice towers, trays and cups. In the old days, if your dice rolled off the table, is was a nat 1!!!

 

[Remathilis]

Sandbox with full impro is not the only campaign type. We are currently running OotA with one group. When the campaign is over where would that lead your dwarf? Nowhere because at the of OotA, it will be time to start a new campaign.

Character creation in my game is pretty much a group thing done with all players. We, like old style games, will discuss in advance where we will go. A full campaign, episodic adventures barely linked together, or a mix of both? But one thing is for sure, no background will ever have any bearing on the campaign world. The story always develop from the game and the actions and interactions of the characters.

So gotcha number 1: My backstory begins with the notion a DM says, "Let's play D&D" not "I'm running Curse of Strahd". You let me know you're running an AP; I'll make my origin fit a little better with the AP.

THAT SAID

If my background will never have bearing on the game, I simply won't have a background. I can play a murderhobo whose family was murdered just as easily as I can play a character with a fleshed-out genealogy. But I will return the favor: your world's history and lore will mean nothing to my PC. If you expect me to care about your world, I expect you to care about my character.

• Reclaiming your homeland is too big of a job for a one off or even a short term thing& needs to be a big thing with many revolving parts that happen to start elsewhere in an area that another player is interested in because the GM wants to interest more than you...
• Maybe reclaiming your homeland is a thing that needs to be done bit by bit over generations because of worldbuilding reasons the GM feels like you are ignoring them on like you trying to import FR dwarves into eberron or Athas.
• Maybe nobody but you cares about your homeland but you are very pushy & railroad your fellow players into whatever you decide that your sidekicks must aid you in & the GM is tired of hearing about it from the conflict averse players.
• Maybe the entire last campaign was you fulfilling your mary sue fantasy of getting revenge for the bad guy who did a thing & the GM is not taking your hook because they got tired of you refusing every clue not presented on bended knees for proper adherence to the specifics of the novel of a backstory you wrote?
• Maybe the GM wants to give another player a chance to drive the train for a bit & is providing your storyline inadequate rewards to entice them into finding a reason to seize the wheel so to speak
• Maybe the GM wants to give developments related to your homeland that you personally might not even know exist time to brew a bit or spill out into other areas that make them more interesting.

Sadly, these bullets make me believe I was right. You assume the worst of your players and any attempt to wrest even a modicum of agency from the DM is tantamount to a coup attempt. Rather than reward a player for engaging with your world and providing plot hooks, you assume I am some Mary Sue trying to make the game all about my own story.
I spent too many years playing under antagonistic DMs who believed their stories were great and we were privileged to be hearing them, often times to the point our characters were inconsequential. They didn't care if our PCs had goals, ideals, desires, families, or I swear-to-god names, they just were there so we could bask in the glory of their game. I have grown to desire games where my character's place in the world matters.

My world has a red dragon interested in doing things like that?... wow... I tend to use dragons more like eberron's dragons & this conflicts.
Most of my games take place in eberron, this is kind of an FRism, it's not going to be goblin tribes because they have real problems. There may have been a keep razed by someone during the last war, but it's going to be someone thatmakes narrative sense given the location.

Gotcha #2: Without knowledge of your Chargen rules, I assumed a bog-standard D&D world. Running Eberron might change the details (replace dragon with Daelkyr, for example). Doesn't change the scenario.

I say that because if you want to write a novel you should do that, or to have total control over it in a game of d&d you should DM such a campaign.*

Too late. And I already do DM 50% of the time.

: I would take that Dwarf, and that background, and roll it into the "homebrew" sandbox that I am running. However, I would also have you play that Dwarf and that background, with the other characters/players. How do you present your goals and interest to them? Do you convince them to help you? Do you help them do things first? What kinds of NPCs/family/contacts/friends do you still have in the area of the keep? Is your information up to date? How long have you been away?

We'd also talk about where on the map this keep is, what other threats/kingdoms/whatever are in that area, and a timeline. Its a collaborative effort.

Now, that doesn't mean that the entire campaign is centered on your character, because there are 4 other players potentially in the game. So how you all are negotiating and working toward (often disparate) goals is part of the interest in the game and the world (or at least I hope it is).

This is The Way.

My current game is set in Ravenloft and consists of six PCs, all from different domains, who are assisting a mysterious library. Despite this, each has their own goal: to stop the vampire who partially turned the dhampir, to recover a lost love through mad science, to learn the origin of their creation, to escape the hag that has been hunting them since birth, etc. Each gets their own mini arc in the overall narrative along with the main arc. Each gets a storyline to be the main draw, and in return they get to see the other PCs also get their day in... (Well, sun doesn't seem appropriate for Ravenloft, now does it?) They enjoy the story laid out and still feel like they created a part of it. They are connected, their choices mattered even before the game started.

 

[tetrasodium]

So gotcha number 1: My backstory begins with the notion a DM says, "Let's play D&D" not "I'm running Curse of Strahd". You let me know you're running an AP; I'll make my origin fit a little better with the AP.

THAT SAID

If my background will never have bearing on the game, I simply won't have a background. I can play a murderhobo whose family was murdered just as easily as I can play a character with a fleshed-out genealogy. But I will return the favor: your world's history and lore will mean nothing to my PC. If you expect me to care about your world, I expect you to care about my character.

Sadly, these bullets make me believe I was right. You assume the worst of your players and any attempt to wrest even a modicum of agency from the DM is tantamount to a coup attempt. Rather than reward a player for engaging with your world and providing plot hooks, you assume I am some Mary Sue trying to make the game all about my own story.
I spent too many years playing under antagonistic DMs who believed their stories were great and we were privileged to be hearing them, often times to the point our characters were inconsequential. They didn't care if our PCs had goals, ideals, desires, families, or I swear-to-god names, they just were there so we could bask in the glory of their game. I have grown to desire games where my character's place in the world matters.

Gotcha #2: Without knowledge of your Chargen rules, I assumed a bog-standard D&D world. Running Eberron might change the details (replace dragon with Daelkyr, for example). Doesn't change the scenario.

Too late. And I already do DM 50% of the time.

This is The Way.

My current game is set in Ravenloft and consists of six PCs, all from different domains, who are assisting a mysterious library. Despite this, each has their own goal: to stop the vampire who partially turned the dhampir, to recover a lost love through mad science, to learn the origin of their creation, to escape the hag that has been hunting them since birth, etc. Each gets their own mini arc in the overall narrative along with the main arc. Each gets a storyline to be the main draw, and in return they get to see the other PCs also get their day in... (Well, sun doesn't seem appropriate for Ravenloft, now does it?) They enjoy the story laid out and still feel like they created a part of it. They are connected, their choices mattered even before the game started.

Like I said, modern d&d has this mandated expectation that the gm should open wide & swallow anything given by a player without expecting so much as the slightest effort on the player to make it fit. Being willing to put something together that fits a particular module the player goes out to read is worse not better. I give my players a great deal of freedom, but that freedom comes at the cost of needing characters that fit the world rather than the other way around. Modern d&d presents that expectation as heretical abuse of GM power.

 

[Helldritch]

So gotcha number 1: My backstory begins with the notion a DM says, "Let's play D&D" not "I'm running Curse of Strahd". You let me know you're running an AP; I'll make my origin fit a little better with the AP.

THAT SAID

If my background will never have bearing on the game, I simply won't have a background. I can play a murderhobo whose family was murdered just as easily as I can play a character with a fleshed-out genealogy. But I will return the favor: your world's history and lore will mean nothing to my PC. If you expect me to care about your world, I expect you to care about my character.

Sadly, these bullets make me believe I was right. You assume the worst of your players and any attempt to wrest even a modicum of agency from the DM is tantamount to a coup attempt. Rather than reward a player for engaging with your world and providing plot hooks, you assume I am some Mary Sue trying to make the game all about my own story.
I spent too many years playing under antagonistic DMs who believed their stories were great and we were privileged to be hearing them, often times to the point our characters were inconsequential. They didn't care if our PCs had goals, ideals, desires, families, or I swear-to-god names, they just were there so we could bask in the glory of their game. I have grown to desire games where my character's place in the world matters.

Gotcha #2: Without knowledge of your Chargen rules, I assumed a bog-standard D&D world. Running Eberron might change the details (replace dragon with Daelkyr, for example). Doesn't change the scenario.

Too late. And I already do DM 50% of the time.

This is The Way.

My current game is set in Ravenloft and consists of six PCs, all from different domains, who are assisting a mysterious library. Despite this, each has their own goal: to stop the vampire who partially turned the dhampir, to recover a lost love through mad science, to learn the origin of their creation, to escape the hag that has been hunting them since birth, etc. Each gets their own mini arc in the overall narrative along with the main arc. Each gets a storyline to be the main draw, and in return they get to see the other PCs also get their day in... (Well, sun doesn't seem appropriate for Ravenloft, now does it?) They enjoy the story laid out and still feel like they created a part of it. They are connected, their choices mattered even before the game started.

Gotcha too.
Your agency will never interfere with the agency of others. D&D is a co-op game. What you want is irrelevant and totally important at the same time.

You assumed your play style much as Chaosmancer did in an other thread. You would not do that in my games unless it would be a one shot no holds barred. You do not make your character alone, you do it with the other players after discussions about the type of campaign people will want the most. Full sandbox is pretty rare but this is one we are doing with my second group. I usually restrict races and subclasses but not on that one.

So, you do not really gotcha anybody here. If you want a murder hobbo it would not work as it would not be allowed (unless you and I have a different definition of a murder hobbo). The goal at char gen is to make a group that has a chance to last. My campaigns usually ends around level 15 but in some cases we go up to 20th. So people want cooperative characters.

And Your Way, isn't the only way. It is one way. No worse or better than any other.

 

[Fifth Element]

Like I said, modern d&d has this mandated expectation that the gm should open wide & swallow anything given by a player without expecting so much as the slightest effort on the player to make it fit. Being willing to put something together that fits a particular module the player goes out to read is worse not better. I give my players a great deal of freedom, but that freedom comes at the cost of needing characters that fit the world rather than the other way around. Modern d&d presents that expectation as heretical abuse of GM power.

This is ridiculous hyperbole. It's difficult to take your arguments seriously when it includes such misrepresentations.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Like I said, modern d&d has this mandated expectation that the gm should open wide & swallow anything given by a player without expecting so much as the slightest effort on the player to make it fit. Being willing to put something together that fits a particular module the player goes out to read is worse not better. I give my players a great deal of freedom, but that freedom comes at the cost of needing characters that fit the world rather than the other way around. Modern d&d presents that expectation as heretical abuse of GM power.

Oh I missed that chapter! Can you tell me where in the 5e books it says all this?

 

[Remathilis]

Like I said, modern d&d has this mandated expectation that the gm should open wide & swallow anything given by a player without expecting so much as the slightest effort on the player to make it fit. Being willing to put something together that fits a particular module the player goes out to read is worse not better. I give my players a great deal of freedom, but that freedom comes at the cost of needing characters that fit the world rather than the other way around. Modern d&d presents that expectation as heretical abuse of GM power.

Can you show us on the doll where the RPG hurt you?

 

[Remathilis]

You assumed your play style much as Chaosmancer did in an other thread. You would not do that in my games unless it would be a one shot no holds barred. You do not make your character alone, you do it with the other players after discussions about the type of campaign people will want the most. Full sandbox is pretty rare but this is one we are doing with my second group. I usually restrict races and subclasses but not on that one..

Really, it doesn't sound like I get to much say in my character at all. Cooperating with other players is one thing, having my PC designed by luck and committee sounds boring. I can play any number of video games and get the same effect.

 

[Helldritch]

Really, it doesn't sound like I get to much say in my character at all. Cooperating with other players is one thing, having my PC designed by luck and committee sounds boring. I can play any number of video games and get the same effect.

This is your point of view.
Here is an example of character we made for CoS.
An assassin from the conan world. The brother of Subotai.
A chineese demon hunter (ranger/rogue) (inspired from diablo 3) with dual hand crossbow with ammunitions filled with alchemical stuff doing fire, acid and radiant damage. Holy papers instead of holy waters and so on. She rocks!
A wizard of high sorcery from Krynn. (our adaptation was way different than the take on the recent UA)
A priestess of the Light from my homebrew world. No heavy armor but she had the powers of both light and healing. Initiate of a warlock (a banned/hunted class in my world) She hides it and fear someone will find out.
An Elven Fighter/mage (read here eldritch knight) from the world of Tolkien.
A Battlemaster, police officer in a SWAT team. Yep, guns and full riot armor and shield along with a nightstick.
A Paladin of the world of Krynn before the Cataclysm. A young squire named Soth...

As you can see, cooperative creation is anything but dull. All had complex stories as background. But no one started at level 1. They all started at level 3 giving multiclass a chance but only one decided to do one. (and he plays elves, always plays elves...)
Ho and the wizard is considering killing Soth, just in case that this is the one to become Lord Soth. At mid point of the campaign this how the character were faring.
The battlemaster was running low on cocaine and feared to enter withdrawal; his box of amunition for his .12 shot gun was about at half and his hand gun still had 5 clips to go.
The chineese demon hunter was running low on fire explosive and out of acid already. She was trying to understand how she ended up in one of the hellish dimensions...
Lord Soth (unclear yet if this is the one) was wondering why the white wizard was so hostile toward him and he's completely baffled by the battlemaster.
The elven fighter/mage kept wondering where on earth he was. He was afraid that Sauron caught him in an illusion or someting like that. He did not trust the priestess of the light.
The priestess of the light was evil but had a rebirth and became a priestess instead of becoming a warlock of the Darkness. She was ashamed of her past and she was trying to be more than good. Yet, she still feared that someone would see her use hex or use eldritch blast on someone. The hags sensed her fears and were trying to blackmail her.

And all this was done with the cooperation of every single players. It really depends on the type of campaign. All I did was to ensure that no one would immediately kill someone out of spite. The players did everything by themselves.

 

[Hussar]

On the flip side, in my last group, the players primarily fit with @Helldritch’s style. Characters were basically just empty vessels and the dm is expected to roll up the plot wagon.

It is a style of gaming. Has nothing to do with edition though. It’s always been a style regardless of edition.