D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[JiffyPopTart]

Personally I don't think any edition does horror well.

Older editions were so gritty and pushed multiple characters. So you didn't get the appropriate level of attachment.
Newer editions are straight up not built to manage the building terror of loss and horror of revulsion..

Horror isn't about being weak. It's about being weak, the difficulty of getting strong or even stable, the fear of the process being stopped by something shocking, and caring about it all.

100%

Horror is seeing a zombie and fleeing even though you have a shotgun (Cthulhu RPG)

Pulp is systematically killing zombies with a shotgun (most Cthulhu boardgames)

DnD is designed where most of your player abilities are about facing down and killing monsters, not trying to avoid them.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

my problem is (and it is something that lately feels like it is addressed more) is that it is a TTRPG that is basically a Combat Engine that then bolted on social and exploration subsystems to it. instead of (IMO) what it should be 3 equal engines with a link.

I think that what the game is steadily growing into right now is exactly what it should be. That is, a game wherein there are many optional tools to run the parts of the game that few people agree on how to run, and that often benefit from different mechanics in different contexts, with only physical contests being strongly objective and prescriptive.

I'd like combat to be less prescriptive than it is, but I definitely don't want any of the new optional mechanics being published to become baked in core rules you're expected to always use for social scenes, or whatever.

I just hope that the increase in optional mechanical modules extends to exploration and do different ways to dealing with types of physical conflict that don't need to be full combats, eventually.

 

[Thomas Shey]

o_Ô
You don't even modify it a bit!

I was referrring to your horror response.

That is the beauty of it. You take the class as is. The only thing you have to modify is the schools of magic and be honest, who does not allow Eldritch knights and Arcane Trickster to simply pick up two schools of magic? I certainly do. It works quite well for a super hero games. And guns and explosive are already in the DMG! I invent nothing. Even the optional rules are there!

See above. The problem with the superhero thing you said was 1. It requires essentially discarding the level mechanism as used (been done before, see Mutants and Masterminds), 2. It assumes a character class system without immensely more adjustment works (it doesn't; superheroes are far more idiosyncratic and in some cases don't fit any obvious archetype you're going to put together unless they're so broad it brings into question what purpose the "class" is serving) 3. Assumes gear in the sense D&D and most games use it is relevant (again, not; gear is a framework for super powers, nothing more; among other things money isn't relevant except for an occasional plot device. It can be used as an explanation for powers, but someone with a lot of money doesn't end up with any more capability intrinsically than someone with almost none). 4. It brings into stark contrast the fundamental incoherence of the D&D hit point model from day one (there's some degree of abstraction in how people take damage, but for most its related to either how much damage you do or how accurate you are, not both, and yes, some people are outright invulnerable to some opponents, and its not like its uncommon (barring his locating a superweapon or tricking him into a trap, the Punisher's skill is pretty much irrelevant when fighting the Hulk).

There's more, but that's just a starter. D&D has failures anytime you get away from a D&D like experience, and with some the failures are stark and frequent. Its not a surprise that the only D20 based superhero game moved progressively farther away from D&D's design, and even from the get-go discarded things like levels as D&D treated them, or level elevating hit points.

As for the modifications for the horror genre, again everything is already in place! No hp on rest? It's called gritty realism and a short rest is a day, a long rest is a week. And it is already in the DMG! The Horror/fear checkis there, so are the rule for injuries and madness and sanity! Everything is in the books. You just have to use them.

Optional rules are still optional. If you change the experience, yes it gets closer to what you need, but again, what a surprise. There's nothing about optional rules not the default that makes them any less changing the game.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think that what the game is steadily growing into right now is exactly what it should be. That is, a game wherein there are many optional tools to run the parts of the game that few people agree on how to run, and that often benefit from different mechanics in different contexts, with only physical contests being strongly objective and prescriptive.

That's going to be true as long as a fair number of people are hostile to any mechanics that bear on non-physical tasks with a real world equivelent.

 

[Minigiant]

100%

Horror is seeing a zombie and fleeing even though you have a shotgun (Cthulhu RPG)

Pulp is systematically killing zombies with a shotgun (most Cthulhu boardgames)

DnD is designed where most of your player abilities are about facing down and killing monsters, not trying to avoid them.

D&D is even worse. It is seeing the zombie, deciding if you are going to waste shotgun shells on it, deciding not to and fleeing from the zombie, then taking another path to catch the much richer vampire even though it can kill you easier.


D&D is too gain obsessed for horror. Older editions relied on players having multiple characters. Never editions are designed for you to encounter threats straight up as default MO.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's going to be true as long as a fair number of people are hostile to any mechanics that bear on non-physical tasks with a real world equivelent.

Eh, few people are hostile to such mechanics, they just enjoy playing dnd in the way that dnd is currently built to be played, for the most part, and don't want what they feel is a good, working, system to be replaced with one they know they'd be less invested in the use of.

 

[overgeeked]

100%

Horror is seeing a zombie and fleeing even though you have a shotgun (Cthulhu RPG)

Pulp is systematically killing zombies with a shotgun (most Cthulhu boardgames)

DnD is designed where most of your player abilities are about facing down and killing monsters, not trying to avoid them.

Right. Which is hilarious when you look at the survivor rules presented in Van Richten's. Your survivor levels up...and gains cool abilities. Admittedly, some of them are really great, like Adrenaline Surge and Desperate Scream. It's so...something. I mean, nice attempt at D&D horror...but it's...yeah.

 

[Helldritch]

I was referrring to your horror response.

See above. The problem with the superhero thing you said was 1. It requires essentially discarding the level mechanism as used (been done before, see Mutants and Masterminds), 2. It assumes a character class system without immensely more adjustment works (it doesn't; superheroes are far more idiosyncratic and in some cases don't fit any obvious archetype you're going to put together unless they're so broad it brings into question what purpose the "class" is serving) 3. Assumes gear in the sense D&D and most games use it is relevant (again, not; gear is a framework for super powers, nothing more; among other things money isn't relevant except for an occasional plot device. It can be used as an explanation for powers, but someone with a lot of money doesn't end up with any more capability intrinsically than someone with almost none). 4. It brings into stark contrast the fundamental incoherence of the D&D hit point model from day one (there's some degree of abstraction in how people take damage, but for most its related to either how much damage you do or how accurate you are, not both, and yes, some people are outright invulnerable to some opponents, and its not like its uncommon (barring his locating a superweapon or tricking him into a trap, the Punisher's skill is pretty much irrelevant when fighting the Hulk).

There's more, but that's just a starter. D&D has failures anytime you get away from a D&D like experience, and with some the failures are stark and frequent. Its not a surprise that the only D20 based superhero game moved progressively farther away from D&D's design, and even from the get-go discarded things like levels as D&D treated them, or level elevating hit points.

Per RAW, lots of people are already calling characters in 5ed super heroes. Change nothing and here you go.
Nothing prevents you to start level 3.
5ed assume no magical items. Nothing prevents you to have high tech items resembling magical items. The sky is the limit. Why do you limit yourself?

Optional rules are still optional. If you change the experience, yes it gets closer to what you need, but again, what a surprise. There's nothing about optional rules not the default that makes them any less changing the game.

Ok, so when I do not like something, people tell me to use the "official" optional rules in the DMG to correct my problem. When I do use them, you tell me that they are optional rules and have no bearing on the discussion? People will be people I guess...

 

[Thomas Shey]

Eh, few people are hostile to such mechanics, they just enjoy playing dnd in the way that dnd is currently built to be played, for the most part, and don't want what they feel is a good, working, system to be replaced with one they know they'd be less invested in the use of.

I can absolutely promise you there are a fairly large number of people who are hostile to virtually any mechanic that they view impinges on their roleplaying at all, which they view virtually any social or intellectual mechanics. It comes up too often for it, even given the tendency for people with a bad reaction to be more likely to say so, not for it to be true.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Per RAW, lots of people are already calling characters in 5ed super heroes. Change nothing and here you go.

They're also usually being ridiculously hyperbolic. At most, non-magical D&D characters are in the category of pulp adventure characters of the higher end. You can make weird arguments about mages, but even there, as noted, D&D characters have a limited tank, something extremely rare with superheroes.

Nothing prevents you to start level 3.

And nothing suggests level 3 looks anything like a superhero.

5ed assume no magical items. Nothing prevents you to have high tech items resembling magical items. The sky is the limit. Why do you limit yourself?

It doesn't matter whether you do or not; the fact the things some supers use are equipment-like exists only in the sense of an occasional plot device. You almost never see a superhero out scrounging for more gear (and if you do they're very much at the bottom end of the scale and/or its a one-off plot event).

Ok, so when I do not like something, people tell me to use the "official" optional rules in the DMG to correct my problem. When I do use them, you tell me that they are optional rules and have no bearing on the discussion? People will be people I guess...

There's a fine line here. When you're looking for a fix for problems, using optional rules and house rules is one of the first places you should go. When you're talking about the general suitability of a system for use outside its normal purpose, though, if you go there you're in the "any system is good for anything camp" and no, I'm not following you there.