D&D General How do players feel about DM fudging?

[Charlaquin]

It's not a whole other activity. It's watching a raw film vs watching the edited and finalized version.

That's the difference here:

It's a piece of stagecraft being played off as some grand deception.

D&D isn’t a stage play. It’s a game. One that, at least in theory, has rules. Believe it or not, some people want to play that game, not have their DM put on a show for them.

 

[Vaalingrade]

D&D isn’t a stage play. It’s a game. One that, at least in theory, has rules. Believe it or not, some people want to play that game, not have their DM put on a show for them.

But... fudging is a rule. It's a thing the game says you can do.

Why can't people play that game without 37 pages of guilt tripping, insults and haranguing?

 

[Hussar]

A lot of people dislike pro wrestling because it’s so transparently staged. A lot of people don’t like CGI and pine for the days of practical effects being the standard. A lot of folks don’t like having to play D&D with the knowledge that the dice don’t actually matter. I think those are all perfectly reasonable preferences.

See, the part I'm getting tripped over is the "a lot" part. After all, pro wresting is one of the most popular sports on TV and has been so for my entire lifetime. Billions of people watch CGI movies and the most popular movies of all time all use considerable CGI. So, your "a lot" seems to be more, "Me" than anyone else.

I mean, of all the things I've heard players complain about, fudging doesn't even crack the top 10. IME, no one really cares. We all know that the DM has his or her thumb on the scales from time to time. That's just part of DMing. @Vaalingrade isn't wrong pointing out that virtually every DMG in existence tells DM's that fudging when, in your best judgement, doing so would result in a more fun game, is perfectly fine and even expected.

The idea that if I change a crit to a regular hit, one time, suddenly no rolls in the game ever matter for all time, is ridiculous. As a DM, I'm going to roll hundreds or thousands of times over the course of a campaign. Ignoring the roll from time to time does not mean that the dice don't matter.

Has anyone ever actually had players complain about this? As in seriously walk out of a game because of this? Quit a group over this? I guess it's probably happened sometime, somewhere. But, the overwrought hand wringing we're seeing here is just mind blowing.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Has anyone ever actually had players complain about this? As in seriously walk out of a game because of this? Quit a group over this? I guess it's probably happened sometime, somewhere. But, the overwrought hand wringing we're seeing here is just mind blowing.

I would. People keep talking like this is some unheard of thing. I would leave a game if a DM revealed they fudged rolls. If it were stated in session zero or the equivalent, I would try to make as polite an exit as I could. If it were revealed between regular sessions, I'd give the DM a piece of my mind privately and then depart the game. If it were revealed during a session, depending on exactly how egregious the situation was, yeah, I literally might walk then and there.

 

[Xetheral]

D&D isn’t a stage play. It’s a game. One that, at least in theory, has rules. Believe it or not, some people want to play that game, not have their DM put on a show for them.

While I agree that D&D isn't a show, I think showmanship is still a valuable DMing skill. From being able to read the players, to knowing how to keep and direct the players' interest and attention, the showman's art can be applied directly to the role of the DM. I think in many ways a DM is a blend of a storyteller and a close-up magician, with the authorial aspect of the former, the interactivity of the later, and from both the emphasis on captivating the audience.

 

[Hussar]

I would. People keep talking like this is some unheard of thing. I would leave a game if a DM revealed they fudged rolls.

"would"

Have you? Have you ever seen it?

So, yes, it is, as far as I know, an unheard of thing. The idea that the player would hold the game hostage because the DM put his thumb on the scales of a single die roll, when the DMG gives advice that tells the DM to DO EXACTLY THIS, isn't something I've ever seen before.

Like I said, I've seen players get shirty about all sorts of things. But fudging? Seriously? I've never met anyone who cared enough to worry about it. We all knew we all did it. Heck, my group had a standard joke of, "Umm, how many HP do you have left?" and then the monster dealing one less than whatever that number was. We all knew what it meant. We also knew that sidelining one player for the next hour while we resolved the current encounter, figured out the new character, rolled up said character, figured out how to bring that character into the game and then keep playing wasn't anywhere near as much fun as just ... not doing that.

So, yeah, this is an unheard of thing.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

"would"

Have you? Have you ever seen it?

No. Because I endeavor to learn about this stuff in advance, or I play online, which (usually) forces rolls to be exclusively in the open. Mostly the latter. But I absolutely would do it, no question, if it happened in person. I'd honestly feel extremely betrayed and angry. That is why I speak so stridently here. I would not tolerate that stuff.

 

[Lanefan]

I can only speak for myself and my experiences. I can't speak for others. What I understand of others' experiences still doesn't justify fudging in my view since what I see can be corrected upstream of the need to fudge.

I think what some are saying - and in fairness they might have a point - is that just because things can be corrected upstream of the need to fudge doesn't mean they always will be, and that it's inevitable that sometimes those things will slip through the cracks until right now when in the middle of play the problem has reared its ugly head; in which case the obvious out-clause for some DMs is to fudge.

This can include adventure design mistakes (e.g. the six wandering Werewolves from upthread) or other "oh, fudge!" moments when something's gone sideways due solely to DM error.

Where I very much don't agree with fudging is if-when it's used to override someone's run of bad (or good!) luck. Like it or not, luck is an intrinsic part of the game and - being the chaotic thing it is - sometimes isn't as predictable and orderly as some might like. So whether it's the BBEG going splat before it can move because the PCs got lucky or it's a PC going splat because some mook got lucky and one-shotted it, them's the breaks. Crap happens either way. Deal with it, and move on.

 

[Lanefan]

In that case why not roll the die out in the open and then fudge? Why the secrecy and deception?

"Sorry Bob, it looks like the Orc crit"?
"Damn. And I'm down to 0 hit points"
"You know Bob let's say that 20 is actually a 02".

Fluid interpretative art right there.

And that DM has just ruined his own game.

Why? Because from here on, every time anyone's PC goes to 0 hit points that player can't help but think (or even say out loud) "Hey, Mr. DM let Bob off the hook - wonder if he'll do the same for me?". Which puts the DM in a bind: either he has to stick to his own precedent and let every PC live when it'd otherwise have died, or not follow precedent and leave himself wide open to charges of playing favourites.

And evenif the roll's not done in the open, IME it's still usually not that hard to tell when someone's been let off the hook, whether it's me-as-player being let off or someone else.

 

[soviet]

While I agree that D&D isn't a show, I think showmanship is still a valuable DMing skill. From being able to read the players, to knowing how to keep and direct the players' interest and attention, the showman's art can be applied directly to the role of the DM. I think in many ways a DM is a blend of a storyteller and a close-up magician, with the authorial aspect of the former, the interactivity of the later, and from both the emphasis on captivating the audience.

But I think that's the point. If the DM us an author and I am a captivated audience member... well, I'm not doing much to drive the experience am I? Instead I am passively consuming it.

Giving the dice the authority instead is a way of abrogating that authorial role and taking one's hand off the steering wheel. Let's play to see what happens. Let's all be surprised by the direction things go in.

Fudging creates invisible guard rails around the game. Every fight will be some variation of 'it looked close for a second but then narrowly we won out'. No overwhelming PC victories against the odds. No long drawn out stalemates. No unexpected resistance we have to run away from. No big defeats. No PC deaths. Instead every conflict will be stretched out or cut short into the same just in time expertly paced PG13 success.

Sounds boring honestly.