D&D 5E A simple houserule for martial/caster balance.

[FrogReaver]

I think magic items should be expected. I've never played a campaign without them.

Even if magic item use is expected (I'm willing to make that leap), that tells us nothing about how powerful of magic items, their abundance or at what character levels they should be given out. In short even assuming magic items isn't really forward progress in being able to talk about balance around them.

 

[FrogReaver]

My apologies.. I should clarify. It's not that I fail to see that such limiters can be useful.

It's that I fail to see why they are required, why they are assumed.

Preference. We prefer such fantasy worlds.

As to what fantasy means, by literal definition, it is the faculty or activity of imagining things, especially things that are impossible or improbable. It's damn near as "anything goes" as you can get. Grounding a setting with baseline physics in order to avoid adjudication of every single physical interaction characters have is a convenience, not a necessity of the genre. Allowing characters to occasionally break rules that are only really there for that convenience should not trigger the vigorous pearl clutching it seems to inspire. The truth is..there is no spoon.

Again, it's a largely shared preference.

As to the rules fictional humans need to abide by, there are many many examples of fictional humans who do not abide by the real world human baseline, with varying levels of explanation, from none to quite thorough biological discussion. D&D can easily operate at either end of that explanatory gradient, but honestly, it mostly functions better when you don't think about it that much.

But that's not the kind of fiction we prefer.

Besides that, in D&D humans only represent one of many PC options. In many, maybe even most cases, one of a player's very very first choices is to depart from the human baseline. So we wind up with these really weird, kind of dissonant conclusions.

"So I'm a 400 year old dude who doesn't sleep, who maybe has a bloodline connected to the fey, but jumping over 30 feet horizontally is preposterous?" Uhhh..what.

It is our preference that humanoids should be mostly capable of human like activities (but potentially with a few perks that are balanced against whatever the game gives regular humans). Game balance blended with fiction is the major consideration here.

In this fictional world, this character has special powers because of X is always a valid fictional answer. But that's not necessarily the kind of fiction we want, that's not necessarily the kind of fiction that makes for a balanced game.

We want the non-mythical/magical action hero character (think 80's action hero). That's the fighter. We want the movie spy/criminal. That's the rogue. Then because this is a game they need to stand alongside the Wizard's and Druids and be balanced.

Does it have to be this way? Is there some imperative that fiction cannot handle anything else? No and No. But that's the way it must be to give us what we want.

 

[Baron Opal II]

It's not about drawing a line. It's about knowing how the game world actually works.

I don't know why there is so much discussion about jumping in this thread. The Fighter needs to be able to jump well to not be the only party member to have to find some complicated way across the acid pit at level 5 after everybody else used Misty Step. As I said earlier, being able to jump or perform feats of Strength doesn't really begin to cut it at level 18 if we're serious about keeping up with the wizard.

And there are the lines.

The game world works the way we say it does. Once we have some design parameters then we can tailor abilities and capabilities to what we find appropriate and pleasing.

 

[FrogReaver]

And there are the lines.

The game world works the way we say it does. Once we have some design parameters then we can tailor abilities and capabilities to what we find appropriate and pleasing.

My design parameter is for an 80's action hero esque fighter and a spy/criminal rogue. I want those visions balanced alongside wizards and druids. GO!

 

[Gammadoodler]

Preference. We prefer such fantasy worlds.


Again, it's a largely shared preference.


But that's not the kind of fiction we prefer.


It is our preference that humanoids should be mostly capable of human like activities (but potentially with a few perks that are balanced against whatever the game gives regular humans). Game balance blended with fiction is the major consideration here.

In this fictional world, this character has special powers because of X is always a valid fictional answer. But that's not necessarily the kind of fiction we want, that's not necessarily the kind of fiction that makes for a balanced game.

We want the non-mythical/magical action hero character (think 80's action hero). That's the fighter. We want the movie spy/criminal. That's the rogue. Then because this is a game they need to stand alongside the Wizard's and Druids and be balanced.

Does it have to be this way? Is there some imperative that fiction cannot handle anything else? No and No. But that's the way it must be to give us what we want.

That is fine in the context of a proposed houserule to try and balance casters and fighters by significantly depowering casters.

But, "because I like it this way" is not the same thing as "it should be this way for everyone." I don't think you've tried to make this case. After all the proposition is for a houserule not a game rule. I do not think this position is held consistently

I am curious though, with a clear preference for the kinds of hero you want, what kind of casters are you looking for, beyond "balanced with the type of martial you like.

 

[ECMO3]

Even if magic item use is expected (I'm willing to make that leap), that tells us nothing about how powerful of magic items, their abundance or at what character levels they should be given out. In short even assuming magic items isn't really forward progress in being able to talk about balance around them.

I think magic items are in most campaigns.

I don't think the problem is lack of magic. Rather it is narrow martial builds that don't have their magic item of choice. For example a staff of striking is an awesome magic martial weapon but if the party tank tricked himself out with GWM and slasher or worse sharpshooter and CBE it is probably not going to be very appealing to him.

This is the biggest problems we find with martials at the tables I play - lack of items specific to their build.

Meanwhile the control wizard that picks up a wand of lightning is fine with it.

 

[FrogReaver]

That is fine in the context of a proposed houserule to try and balance casters and fighters by significantly depowering casters.

But, "because I like it this way" is not the same thing as "it should be this way for everyone." I don't think you've tried to make this case. After all the proposition is for a houserule not a game rule. I do not think this position is held consistently

I think people just haven't thought through their position to sufficiently state it as such. You've asked why people want character jumping distance to be bounded by real word jumping distance without the aid of magic. You asked before why should they care about that when fiction can be anything we want it to be. The answer that they've not quite got to yet is that this is what they and many others prefer. I happen to believe that it's a significant majority that prefer this, but I have no data or anything to back that up. So take that thought with a grain of salt. But if this is true, then it would be the basis for designing the game around this concept and not just a houserule around it.

I am curious though, with a clear preference for the kinds of hero you want, what kind of casters are you looking for, beyond "balanced with the type of martial you like.

The classic D&D casters are fine conceptually. I've no issues with them. The balanced with the type of martials I like is then the only thing that needs changing IMO.

 

[Gammadoodler]

The fact that there is not more then there is does not mean that there is not what there is.

I'm not saying that Fighter abilities need some kind of special explanation. I'm saying that they need a basic level of explanation equal to what other classes that already have.

Fighters already have the basic explanation you require. Because fundamentally the way the explanations all break down is the same.

Wizard: I learn to read books good
Sorcerer: My blood good
Bard: I learn do music good
Fighter: I learn to fight good

Basic explanation accomplished.

As I said we previously we have a very broad understanding understanding of how wizards, sorcerers, bards etc bend reality.

All I'm saying is do the same for Fighters. Are they like Sorcerers and their ability is inborn - do they harness something from a magical bloodline like Bloodragers in Pathfinder? Do they learn their abilities from special mystical schools like wizards or Wuxia heroses?

Are they slowly becoming gods like the high level Fighter equivalents in the Malazan Book of the Fallen?

Are all of these possible and the player gets to choose?

We have an extremely shallow understanding of how the casters bend reality. Far far far far more shallow than anything you've proposed above for Fighters. I see no reason Fighters should be required to make such a selection, and many reasons why they shouldn't.

throw those of us who actually care about the implied setting...

So. I specifically bring up setting elements people don't care about. Your response dismisses those elements without addressing any of then at all, and I'm the one who doesnt care about the setting..cool.. Maybe the hypocrisy was unintentional?

.. of the game a we play in a bone and maybe giving Fighters something good at high level might actually stand a chance of happening at some point.

The bone has already been thrown. The explanations are already there. You just have to accept them.

In any case, I think making such decisions would inevitably make the mechanics better because they would be more meaningful.

So you would say that caster's mechanics are more meaningful as-is?

I don't know why there is so much discussion about jumping in this thread. The Fighter needs to be able to jump well to not be the only party member to have to find some complicated way across the acid pit at level 5 after everybody else used Misty Step. As I said earlier, being able to jump or perform feats of Strength doesn't really begin to cut it at level 18 if we're serious about keeping up with the wizard.

It's because it is one of the most obvious examples where Fighters are hamstrung by mundane obstacles for the full duration of their career. Even the subclass that gets a specific ability to help with this receives a bump so small as to be functionally useless In all but the edgiest of edgecases. It is this way when it doesn't have to be.

The generic ability to wield magic is not inherently stronger than just being physically strong. It's power and usefulness is entirely based on the abilities granted by the game system. The game system could also just grant similarly useful powerful abilities to physically stronger PCs. That it doesn't is the problem many of us have with it.

 

[Seramus]

It would be nice to give the non magical characters the ability to cleave through stone walls, rip apart plate armor with their bare hands, run up castle walls, and leap a hundred feet in the air to smack a passing dragon, but believe you me, there are many players who would gnash their teeth and stomp their feet at the idea of their "everyman Fighter" being turned into a "cartoon character".

Never no mind the fact that legendary heroes in real world myths do this sort of thing all the time. No swimming up a waterfall or making whole armies run in feat of you for you, Mr. Fighter man! Now get over there and pretend to be a threat to that 50' long magical fire lizard while I cast a trivial spell to do everything you cant.

All of Irish Mythology is anime as heck. Even setting aside the hilarious feats, Cu Chulainn himself has multiple hair AND eye colors!

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think magic items should be expected. I've never played a campaign without them.

Even if magic item use is expected (I'm willing to make that leap), that tells us nothing about how powerful of magic items, their abundance or at what character levels they should be given out. In short even assuming magic items isn't really forward progress in being able to talk about balance around them.

Existence of magic items is generally a reasonable assumption for most games. That the martial will have the correct type of item to fit their build or shore up their weaknesses isn't. In the last game I played, at level 12 my Paladin was still using a +1 mace to fight demons and devils, and had no items improving her mobility or ranged capabilities for example.