D&D 5E Declarations that start combat vs. initiative

[Plaguescarred]

@Plaguescarred was a bit misleading when he said surprised characters get a turn. They technically do, but really they don't. They get an initiative number. Once that number passes, they can make a reaction as they've missed their first turn and are no longer surprised. They get no movement or actions, though.

I was not misleading, a surprised character still gets a turn. Not because they can't move or act during it that they don't really get one, they really get a turn and the very reason they still get one is because it's important for tracking effect tied to turn or reaction allowance.

 

[Plaguescarred]

Why? The whole point is to try and gain exactly that advantage, by finding realistic ways of getting the drop on your opponents. Flip side: the NPCs are trying to do the same to you.

Yeah, those dumb 5e surprise rules again...

Because otherwise it becomes a chaos where everyone is trying to act before initiative gets called up. Initiative represents just that, acting order where each take a turn when time becomes critical and everyone wants to jump in, this is when a mechanic to determine first to last becomes handy for the following 6 seconds.

It also indicate who cannot react to a given action when surprised.

 

[Plaguescarred]

In rare instance where violence is totally unexpected between two sides that are aware of each other and that the one acting first is unaware of it coming when it goes first in initiative order, nothing prevent a DM to just let him take a turn still doing whatever it was doing, such as talking or Dodge, Help, Search, Use an Object, keep it still or moving etc being unsuspecting of what's coming, until when the other gets its turn and can act as it originally declared intentions.

This can be handy in situation where the original intention declared is not noticeable, like the use of an innate spellcasting that has no component to notice for exemple. But like i said, these are rare instances. Most observable physical acts initiated, from attack to spellcasting, for me is noticeable to trigger initiative so everyone can try act upon.

 

[Flamestrike]

I have found over the years that when a player attacks suddenly, having them roll really bad on initiative feels off, so I usually let them go first during first round only. This applies to villains as well. But it always depends on the situation. It's a judgement call and one of those areas where rules are overridden in favour of common sense.

Everyone is different, but I would loathe that rule in practice.

It becomes a race to scream 'I ATTACK' first.

 

[Flamestrike]

Yeah, those dumb 5e surprise rules again...

There is nothing dumb about those surprise rules.

Example 1:

A hidden Assassin takes aim at a NPC Guard with his crossbow from 30' away...

PC (Assassin): DM, I shoot the Guard!
DM: OK Mate, you take aim at the guard, and a slight creak from your bow signals your hostile intent. The Guard is surprised! Roll initiative.

No matter the result of the initiative check, the PC shoots before the Guard, from hiding. Possibly even twice (should he roll higher), and if he beats the Guards initiative check, he also gets an automatic critical hit on that first attack. The initiative check in this example, is only used to determine if the Guard might be able to use a reaction to the attack, if the Assassin gets his auto crit feature off, and if he gets to shoot twice, or just the once before out hapless Guard gets a turn to act.

Example 2:

A hidden Assassin takes aim at a NPC Guard - who in this example has the Alert feat - with his crossbow from 30' away...

PC (Assassin): DM, I shoot the Guard!
DM: OK Mate, you take aim at the guard, and a slight creak from your bow signals your hostile intent. At this sound, the Guard's head turns as if on a swivel, scanning in your general direction (but you're still hidden). This Guard is particularly Alert and is not surprised! Roll initiative.

In this latter example, our Guard is Alert (thanks to his feat) and cannot be surprised. He rolls initiative as normal. Even should the Guard go first, our PC Assassin is still Hidden from him, so our Guard will likely have to waste a Turn taking the Search action (and rolling over the Assassins Stealth check) to find our PC.

TL;DR there is nothing wrong with the Surprise rules (or initiative for that matter), as long as you understand them, and how they're intended to operate.

 

[Maxperson]

The thing is that once more (and as usual more the source of disagreement than the ruleset itself) it is hugely circumstances dependent. There is a whole gradation of possibilities from "having a casual dinner with a relaxed king who is basically trusting the people at the table" and "An extremely tense dinner where the possibility of treachery is all but certain and everyone is watching everyone, on full alert".

Well, yes. That's why I've been saying that this is all very circumstantial. In some circumstances it will be appropriate for me to invoke the Rules as Written to give automatically successful initiative to a PC or NPC, and in others(most others) it won't be appropriate.

I noticed you didn't respond to the proof you asked me for and I provided in post #100.

As there are differences between doing something that might be expected like drawing a weapon, jumping at the king's throat or casting a spell, and doing something totally unexpected (but for me the table flip would not qualify, and would also be circumstance dependent for example if it's a massive table, it would be unlikely to succeed but all the more surprising if it was, etc.).

This I agree with. A king's table would be waaaaaay beyond those without the strength of Thor or Hercules to flip. Maybe a 20 strength barbarian who gets under the table and uses his legs and leverage could slowly tip it over, but it's hardly going to be surprising at that point.

A table at the tavern talking with a trusted employer, though. That could work for what @Lanefan is saying.

In all cases, it's not the act itself that starts the initiative, being an act that stats a combat it means that it's only the declaration by the player that he wants his character to commit the act, the act will be one of the actions of combat, and that is the 5e rule, plainly.

Yes and no. There has to be an act(not action) that starts the combat. A declaration by itself does nothing, because literally nothing has happened. A barbarian says he charges at the orcs. In the game the charge(movement and attack) hasn't happened yet, but in the fiction the barbarian has started to yell, lower his body and take the first step forward(the act). This starts the combat and initiative is rolled. A rogue declares that he is reaching for his dagger to throw at the courier that he just detected is a vampire. In the game the action hasn't happened yet, but in the fiction the rogue's hand is suddenly moving towards his dagger(the act) and initiative is rolled. That act starts the combat.

If you try to trigger combat only off of a declaration and not an act, then in the fiction that barbarian is still non-offensively standing around and the rogue is just talking to the courier. There's literally nothing to trigger a combat and initiative roll.

So acts start the combat, but the declared combat actions themselves haven't happened yet.

 

[RuinousPowers]

Step 1: "The DM calls for an ability check when a character or monster attempts an action (other than an attack) that has a chance of failure. When the outcome is uncertain, the dice determine the results." - PHB page 174

Step 2: "When combat starts, every participant makes a Dexterity check to determine their place in the initiative order." - PHB page 189

Since initiative is an ability check and is not an attack, it falls under this rule. Since the outcome is not uncertain as it's impossible for the fighter to get to the dagger thrower before the throw happens, we don't have to concoct a ridiculous justification for how it's possible or have the DM roleplay the PC.

By RAW, the DM can(and in my opinion should) just tell the dagger thrower than he wins initiative and goes first without a roll. Then for the others, including the fighter, for whom the outcome is uncertain, a roll is called for.

Couldn't this be interpreted as a specific rule countermanding a general rule? Plus initiative doesn't fit in the description of "has a chance of failure". A low roll isn't a failure, it's just a low roll.

 

[Maxperson]

Couldn't this be interpreted as a specific rule countermanding a general rule? Plus initiative doesn't fit in the description of "has a chance of failure". A low roll isn't a failure, it's just a low roll.

You're generally trying to go first in initiative, so success/failure is there, it's just different. It might be closer to the success and success with a cost variant(if you fail the roll) with the cost being not going first and being worse the lower you roll.

I don't see it as countermanding the general rule, though. As with all ability checks you only roll when the outcome is in doubt, and almost always the outcome of initiative will be in doubt. Almost. Those few times where it's not, you auto succeed(go first) or auto fail(go last or don't go).

 

[Arilyn]

Everyone is different, but I would loathe that rule in practice.

It becomes a race to scream 'I ATTACK' first.

If my players did that, I'd drop the ruling for sure, but I've always had groups who are usually reluctant to make assumptions and draw weapons. Every once in a while, however, a player will interrupt the villain monologue, or take the gamble that the baron is for sure a vampire, or whatever. If it seems likely that it'd catch the baddie off guard, player goes first. Once again, judgement call.

 

[glass]

I'm standing with a knife in hand. Usain Bolt is 30 feet away with a greatsword on his back and in chain mail armor. Heck, let's make him unarmored. He is not allowed to even begin to move until I start to throw the knife. How many would bet on Bolt to reach me with his sword out before I can throw the knife?

(Bolding mine). That is where you are going wrong, IMNSHO. He absolutely is allowed to start moving before you start throwing, and if he wins initiative, he probably did.

Question for everyone suggesting normal initiative - do you consider the instigating declaration binding?

Not binding in any mechanical sense. Narratively, if they rolled poorly on initiative, they probably have their sword partway out of their scabbard by the time their turn comes up. But if circumstances have changed sufficiently that they wish to, they may let it fall back in and do something else.

_
glass.