D&D General D&D isn't a simulation game, so what is???

[pemerton]

You have information with D&D. Perhaps just not the level of detail you may want. But if there is no death spiral, no consequence to intermediate injury then it's just pure fluff with no inherent meaning.

Classic Traveller, in its 1981 revision, has no death spiral: damage taken ablates physical stats, but the consequences of that ablation are not experienced in the current combat.

It's still simulationist, compared to D&D, in that we know that taking a couple of dice of wounds from being shot is some sort of physical injury, and we know that it's not fatal, if the character is not at zero on any stats. Compared to the die of wounds from an arrow in D&D, which could be anything from a graze to a wearing down of luck to being a near-mortal wound, depending on the overall context.

 

[pemerton]

You have information with D&D.

The only information is that the character is closer to losing the fight. We don't know why. We don't know whether, and if so how, they are physically hurt. We don't know which wound is the potentially mortal one. Etc.

And as Gygax explained back in 1979, this is a deliberate feature.

 

[Cadence]

Classic Traveller, in its 1981 revision, has no death spiral: damage taken ablates physical stats, but the consequences of that ablation are not experienced in the current combat.

It's still simulationist, compared to D&D, in that we know that taking a couple of dice of wounds from being shot is some sort of physical injury, and we know that it's not fatal, if the character is not at zero on any stats. Compared to the die of wounds from an arrow in D&D, which could be anything from a graze to a wearing down of luck to being a near-mortal wound, depending on the overall context.

Why does the ablation of physical stats not kick in until after combat? (Is there any effect as combat goes on?)

 

[Thomas Shey]

(bold added)

Did you mean "abilities" instead of "hits"??? or something else?

I actually went back and reread your post and I'd misunderstood it; it appears you aren't talking about separating out actual injury from the other factors. Or are you? I found what you posted a little confusing as it was constructed.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You have information with D&D.

Really? Answer one question then; if an opponent takes a sword swing at a character, exceeds their armor class, and ablates his hit points, did he actually take any physical damage? What told you this? Its nothing in the rules of virtually any incarnation of the game.

So, no, I'm going to claim you have no useful information beyond what I said: that they iterated toward death. In what fashion they've done so is not conveyed in even the most minimalist fashion.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Why does the ablation of physical stats not kick in until after combat? (Is there any effect as combat goes on?)

I can't speculate why that was chosen, but its more true than not as it turns out; adrenaline papers over an amazing degree of injury until a person comes down, even things you'd think it wouldn't like broken fingers.

(Part of it is, of course, that adrenaline also messes you up some right out the gate, which is one of the reasons that training at the range or in the dojo only tells you a limited amount of how you'll do in an actual combat).

 

[Cadence]

Really? Answer one question then; if an opponent takes a sword swing at a character, exceeds their armor class, and ablates his hit points, did he actually take any physical damage? What told you this? Its nothing in the rules of virtually any incarnation of the game.

So, no, I'm going to claim you have no useful information beyond what I said: that they iterated toward death. In what fashion they've done so is not conveyed in even the most minimalist fashion.

Taking that as information, but about the only information, seems fair to me.

 

[DND_Reborn]

I actually went back and reread your post and I'd misunderstood it; it appears you aren't talking about separating out actual injury from the other factors. Or are you? I found what you posted a little confusing as it was constructed.

Sorry for any confusion. It is more about having PCs have most of the HP from their best ability modifiers. A rogue with high DEX and INT would derive most of his or her HP from reflexes and focus, in addition to those provided by skill (the HD).

In other words, such a PC would dodge most physical threats and use their concentration to block out mental threats, the "skill" part for a rogue might involve parrying attacks, knowing the opponents next move or weakness, etc.

FWIW, I did have a much more complex system at one point where using your ability scores to grant "bonus hit points" (instead of just CON) determined how your PC dealt with a threat and worked against what type of damage you were taking, but at the time it was too complex to really work out. The neat side was it made it so certain characters were better at defending against or mitigating certain damage based on the abilities.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Sorry for any confusion. It is more about having PCs have most of the HP from their best ability modifiers. A rogue with high DEX and INT would derive most of his or her HP from reflexes and focus, in addition to those provided by skill (the HD).

In other words, such a PC would dodge most physical threats and use their concentration to block out mental threats, the "skill" part for a rogue might involve parrying attacks, knowing the opponents next move or weakness, etc.

FWIW, I did have a much more complex system at one point where using your ability scores to grant "bonus hit points" (instead of just CON) determined how your PC dealt with a threat and worked against what type of damage you were taking, but at the time it was too complex to really work out. The neat side was it made it so certain characters were better at defending against or mitigating certain damage based on the abilities.

Ah. While that's interesting in terms of making other things actually contribute to the "non meat points" part of hit points, it still doesn't answer what's going on with a given hit.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Taking that as information, but about the only information, seems fair to me.

There's never been a question about that. As I noted, very few games have absolutely no simulation elements, but when they get minimalist enough, I reserve the right to call them negligible, and that's about what I'd call that level of minimalism. Its essentially a minimal mechanic to let it work as a game, but doesn't tell you anything useful on a simulation level.