If you do run this one, consider this adaptation...
(The adventure is solid enough on its own, though.)
D&D 5E Rime of the Frostmaiden Post-Mortem (Spoilers)
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(The adventure is solid enough on its own, though.)
Scott Christian
Hero
I can answer question 2 for you - because their adventures are well crafted. I stated why. The fact that you find them "shite/incoherent/badly thought through/illogical adventures" is indeed an opinion. The reason people debate is because what you say is not a fact. Just like me saying it is "good" is not a fact.
I say that, with even a half-a** work ethic, it can run for any table just fine. I can also say that there are problems with every single AP I have ever bought: D&D, PF, third party. So a certain amount of prep is, and should be, expected if you want it to blend with your players and table style.
Of course if you have players there that don't mind a stumble here or there, then you can just run as is.
BenTheFerg
Explorer
Listen Scott
I will say this one last time... Loads of people have chipped in on this thread stating the massive problems there are with Rime & other campaigns.
Problems which are simply the map is wrong/ the room description is poor (which are easily fixable although still annoying - and Rime has these in spades too)
The problems are fundamental -and also difficult to sort out in Rime
The 1st MASSIVE problem is player motivation - compounded by the fact that some villages are practicing human sacrifice (which is not working in the game as written) - why would PCs ally themselves to the 10 Towns with that going on?
2nd is the massively long winter- as others have pointed out, it would have killed everyone by the time the PCs arrive/ why hasn't there been a mass evacuation/ other cities sent aid (which the pcs can be main leads in?)
3rd massive problem: lack of agency by PC when it comes to the central plot - it is assumed they will join up with the Necromancer Vellynne Harpell. This is not necessarily going to happen.... and this creates a problem for players - they don't know where the city of Ythryn is, why should they want to care about it...... returning to motivation.
Now obviously all of these are solvable (I solved them) but only in the hands of an experienced GM who expects various aspects to be fecked up and needing fixing.
HOWEVER not every GM is an experienced GM. And as was stated earlier, Swedish Chef chipped in to state their GM was not experienced and it was creating havoc for the group since players spotted various logical flaws in the situation (like why are people still alive after over 24 months of permanent winter etc) D&D 5E - Rime of the Frostmaiden Post-Mortem (Spoilers)
MOREOVER what I and others are saying is that wouldn't it be nice if WotC who are a massive games company employed an editor to run their eye over their campaigns to make sure such errors, small and large, did not happen. Since they are a big company these should NOT happen - since they can afford to employ such a person.
The Biggest Problem - one I am still grappling with - is at the end in Ythryn
At the END OF THE CAMPAIGN... the logic falls apart entirely. This material is from a thread from Justin Alexander - he says it really well
Ending Option #1
One way the PCs can end the campaign is to activate the 'Reset Obelisk and save Ythryn' ending of the campaign.
How do they do this:
1. They take Iriolarthas' staff of power (within Ythryn).
2. They use it to activate the obelisk.
Seems simples!!
However - there is a problem here!
Since Iriolarthas (the demilich) has spent 1800+ years trying to solve this problem. Despite his "best efforts" he's been unable to do so, despite having access to everything he needs.
A - the text states he is only a demilich since he cannot access his phylactery (its trapped under ice) -but this is a misreading of the rules about the phylactery - since it only has to be on the same plane as the demi-lich.....thus...??!!
B. But the problem here is that:
(i) The city is stuck because X needs to be done. (X = get staff)
(ii) X could have been done at any time. (Since Iriolarthas has his staff - although in the adventure it is not on his person but hidden in the rubbish in his library...??)
And this doesn't make sense. Nor will it make sense to any of my players who all are smart (one incredibly so) and experienced gamers... and I am sure this is the case for many gaming tables......
Thus the only solution seems to be - and an easy one here to boot: the GM needs to add an out-of-context element - ie: the staff of power is outside of the city (not in the demi-lich's library) - in a ruin such as that sole Spire of Netherill - which would force the PCs to leave the city, get the thing they need, and then come back. Which would also help with some of the timeline issues the finale struggles with.
Activating the Obelisk creates other problems too.... (going back in time - so you may want to change that too!)
Ending Option #2
The Pcs use the Ythryn mythallar to cast control weather and end Auril's winter!
Problem: This doesn't actually work.
Like WTF!
1. it can only change the temperature from "arctic cold" to "cold". For 8 hours. As long as the user concentrates.
2. PCs have to do this 3 times per day for it to work, whilst concentrating.
3. It only effects a 50 miles radius, which isn't far enough to reach all of Ten-Towns.
On the other hand, as JA points out, it's nice to have an alternative resolution to the Auril's winter plot than killing Auril... except not really. Because the adventure says that using the mythallar immediately causes Auril to show up and fight them to the death.
So it's all pointless.
[I like the idea of this working - so it needs some work to be changed!]
Ending Option #3
24 hours after the PCs enter Ythryn, Auril shows up & then she fights to the death.
Mostly I/ JA & others I have chatted with don't understand the timeline here.
Which really misses the point of this awesome city Ythryn and what you can do with it.
Instead JA encourages us (& I wholeheartedly concur):
Ending Option #3 solution:
Ending Option #1
One way the PCs can end the campaign is to activate the 'Reset Obelisk and save Ythryn' ending of the campaign.
How do they do this:
1. They take Iriolarthas' staff of power (within Ythryn).
2. They use it to activate the obelisk.
Seems simples!!
However - there is a problem here!
Since Iriolarthas (the demilich) has spent 1800+ years trying to solve this problem. Despite his "best efforts" he's been unable to do so, despite having access to everything he needs.
A - the text states he is only a demilich since he cannot access his phylactery (its trapped under ice) -but this is a misreading of the rules about the phylactery - since it only has to be on the same plane as the demi-lich.....thus...??!!
B. But the problem here is that:
(i) The city is stuck because X needs to be done. (X = get staff)
(ii) X could have been done at any time. (Since Iriolarthas has his staff - although in the adventure it is not on his person but hidden in the rubbish in his library...??)
And this doesn't make sense. Nor will it make sense to any of my players who all are smart (one incredibly so) and experienced gamers... and I am sure this is the case for many gaming tables......
Thus the only solution seems to be - and an easy one here to boot: the GM needs to add an out-of-context element - ie: the staff of power is outside of the city (not in the demi-lich's library) - in a ruin such as that sole Spire of Netherill - which would force the PCs to leave the city, get the thing they need, and then come back. Which would also help with some of the timeline issues the finale struggles with.
Activating the Obelisk creates other problems too.... (going back in time - so you may want to change that too!)
Ending Option #2
The Pcs use the Ythryn mythallar to cast control weather and end Auril's winter!
Problem: This doesn't actually work.
Like WTF!1. it can only change the temperature from "arctic cold" to "cold". For 8 hours. As long as the user concentrates.
2. PCs have to do this 3 times per day for it to work, whilst concentrating.
3. It only effects a 50 miles radius, which isn't far enough to reach all of Ten-Towns.
On the other hand, as JA points out, it's nice to have an alternative resolution to the Auril's winter plot than killing Auril... except not really. Because the adventure says that using the mythallar immediately causes Auril to show up and fight them to the death.
So it's all pointless.
[I like the idea of this working - so it needs some work to be changed!]
Ending Option #3
24 hours after the PCs enter Ythryn, Auril shows up & then she fights to the death.
Mostly I/ JA & others I have chatted with don't understand the timeline here.
- The PCs reach Ythryn.
- 12 hours later, competing archaeological teams arrive in the city.
- 12 hours after that, Auril shows up, summarily executes the competing archaeological teams, and triggers the endgame.
Which really misses the point of this awesome city Ythryn and what you can do with it.
Instead JA encourages us (& I wholeheartedly concur):
Ending Option #3 solution:
- Roleplay the arrival and interaction of different Arcane Brotherhood teams - led by Avarice & Vellynne. Get the PCs in conflict/ negotiating with these groups as they search the ruins for magical goodies/ lore/ etc. Roleplay the Big Bads & their minions to the hilt.
- Use Monte Cook Games' Arcana of the Ancients for 5e (it is awesome) and use it to seed up some "sifting through the ruins" combined with neighbourhood/ zone explorations
- Load it all up into your campaign status document. Push some internecine espionage as the teams spy on each other's efforts, steal their field notes, etc.
Spoiler ends
I really like lots of aspects of RotFM - which is why I am running it.
As soon as I read about the idea of a lost Netherese city under the ice, it sounded awesome (a spin off Lost City)..... and there are tons of kewl parts to the campaign.
I agree that every GM brings their own skills/ personality/ tastes and modifies a campaign or simply loots them for their own ends....
I have run my fair share.... However, never have I had to change so much as when I have been running Rime. & if I ever run Out of the Abyss/ Descent into Avernus etc, I know there are massive things to do be done with those campaigns as well.
All I ask for, as others do, is for Wizards of the Coast, that small games company run by someone in their garage, to get their act together and create a more coherent campaign. Hopefully Radiant Citadel will do all of this!! I sincerely hope so, since I am very interested in a planar campaign at some point in the near future.
FrozenNorth
Hero
Eh, I went to see Secrets of Dumbledore with my family last weekend. Compared to that mess, any errors in Rime of the Frostmaiden are comparatively minor.
Scott Christian
Hero
I hear you and respect your critiques. I think they are valid. We simply disagree on the level of severity, and I think, the amount of time needed to fix them. I hear the others on this board, and most share your opinion - that RotFM is a mess. Again, valid opinions, just as saying it is a fun and exciting and fluid adventure is valid. We may disagree on the "valid," but please know I can tell you are sincere in your critiques.Listen Scott
I will say this one last time... Loads of people have chipped in on this thread stating the massive problems there are with Rime & other campaigns.
Problems which are simply the map is wrong/ the room description is poor (which are easily fixable although still annoying - and Rime has these in spades too)
The problems are fundamental -and also difficult to sort out in Rime
The 1st MASSIVE problem is player motivation - compounded by the fact that some villages are practicing human sacrifice (which is not working in the game as written) - why would PCs ally themselves to the 10 Towns with that going on?
2nd is the massively long winter- as others have pointed out, it would have killed everyone by the time the PCs arrive/ why hasn't there been a mass evacuation/ other cities sent aid (which the pcs can be main leads in?)
3rd massive problem: lack of agency by PC when it comes to the central plot - it is assumed they will join up with the Necromancer Vellynne Harpell. This is not necessarily going to happen.... and this creates a problem for players - they don't know where the city of Ythryn is, why should they want to care about it...... returning to motivation.
Now obviously all of these are solvable (I solved them) but only in the hands of an experienced GM who expects various aspects to be fecked up and needing fixing.
HOWEVER not every GM is an experienced GM. And as was stated earlier, Swedish Chef chipped in to state their GM was not experienced and it was creating havoc for the group since players spotted various logical flaws in the situation (like why are people still alive after over 24 months of permanent winter etc) D&D 5E - Rime of the Frostmaiden Post-Mortem (Spoilers)
MOREOVER what I and others are saying is that wouldn't it be nice if WotC who are a massive games company employed an editor to run their eye over their campaigns to make sure such errors, small and large, did not happen. Since they are a big company these should NOT happen - since they can afford to employ such a person.
The Biggest Problem - one I am still grappling with - is at the end in Ythryn
At the END OF THE CAMPAIGN... the logic falls apart entirely. This material is from a thread from Justin Alexander - he says it really well
Ending Option #1
One way the PCs can end the campaign is to activate the 'Reset Obelisk and save Ythryn' ending of the campaign.
How do they do this:
1. They take Iriolarthas' staff of power (within Ythryn).
2. They use it to activate the obelisk.
Seems simples!!
However - there is a problem here!
Since Iriolarthas (the demilich) has spent 1800+ years trying to solve this problem. Despite his "best efforts" he's been unable to do so, despite having access to everything he needs.
A - the text states he is only a demilich since he cannot access his phylactery (its trapped under ice) -but this is a misreading of the rules about the phylactery - since it only has to be on the same plane as the demi-lich.....thus...??!!
B. But the problem here is that:
(i) The city is stuck because X needs to be done. (X = get staff)
(ii) X could have been done at any time. (Since Iriolarthas has his staff - although in the adventure it is not on his person but hidden in the rubbish in his library...??)
And this doesn't make sense. Nor will it make sense to any of my players who all are smart (one incredibly so) and experienced gamers... and I am sure this is the case for many gaming tables......
Thus the only solution seems to be - and an easy one here to boot: the GM needs to add an out-of-context element - ie: the staff of power is outside of the city (not in the demi-lich's library) - in a ruin such as that sole Spire of Netherill - which would force the PCs to leave the city, get the thing they need, and then come back. Which would also help with some of the timeline issues the finale struggles with.
Activating the Obelisk creates other problems too.... (going back in time - so you may want to change that too!)
Ending Option #2
The Pcs use the Ythryn mythallar to cast control weather and end Auril's winter!
Problem: This doesn't actually work.
1. it can only change the temperature from "arctic cold" to "cold". For 8 hours. As long as the user concentrates.
2. PCs have to do this 3 times per day for it to work, whilst concentrating.
3. It only effects a 50 miles radius, which isn't far enough to reach all of Ten-Towns.
On the other hand, as JA points out, it's nice to have an alternative resolution to the Auril's winter plot than killing Auril... except not really. Because the adventure says that using the mythallar immediately causes Auril to show up and fight them to the death.
So it's all pointless.
[I like the idea of this working - so it needs some work to be changed!]
Ending Option #3
24 hours after the PCs enter Ythryn, Auril shows up & then she fights to the death.
Mostly I/ JA & others I have chatted with don't understand the timeline here.
- The PCs reach Ythryn.
- 12 hours later, competing archaeological teams arrive in the city.
- 12 hours after that, Auril shows up, summarily executes the competing archaeological teams, and triggers the endgame.
Which really misses the point of this awesome city Ythryn and what you can do with it.
Instead JA encourages us (& I wholeheartedly concur):
Ending Option #3 solution:
Despite doing all of that, it still does not solve the issues of #1 and #2....
- Roleplay the arrival and interaction of different Arcane Brotherhood teams - led by Avarice & Vellynne. Get the PCs in conflict/ negotiating with these groups as they search the ruins for magical goodies/ lore/ etc. Roleplay the Big Bads & their minions to the hilt.
- Use Monte Cook Games' Arcana of the Ancients for 5e (it is awesome) and use it to seed up some "sifting through the ruins" combined with neighbourhood/ zone explorations
- Load it all up into your campaign status document. Push some internecine espionage as the teams spy on each other's efforts, steal their field notes, etc.
Spoiler ends
I really like lots of aspects of RotFM - which is why I am running it.
As soon as I read about the idea of a lost Netherese city under the ice, it sounded awesome (a spin off Lost City)..... and there are tons of kewl parts to the campaign.
I agree that every GM brings their own skills/ personality/ tastes and modifies a campaign or simply loots them for their own ends....
I have run my fair share.... However, never have I had to change so much as when I have been running Rime. & if I ever run Out of the Abyss/ Descent into Avernus etc, I know there are massive things to do be done with those campaigns as well.
All I ask for, as others do, is for Wizards of the Coast, that small games company run by someone in their garage, to get their act together and create a more coherent campaign. Hopefully Radiant Citadel will do all of this!! I sincerely hope so, since I am very interested in a planar campaign at some point in the near future.
BenTheFerg
Explorer
Thanks for your sincere reply!!
As I said - I am enjoying it - but my - it really takes all my skill to fix things and I am highly indebted to others who have done loads of work in this regard. I would rather though spend time on fleshing out side-quests/ sandboxing it/ getting players linked in via background/ developing how to roleplay various npcs/ working out how the rules / spells work/ how critters will do tactics - this is enough work IMHO.
Curse of Strahd just needed 3 solid weeks of prep - after that it ran itself. Nice. Ditto Darkening of Mirkwood for AiME. Also nice! Rime needs tons of work.... Want to avoid another Rime for a while!
Scott Christian
Hero
I have not run, only played, in Curse. I found it a lot of fun. Hope your Rime turns out just as successful.
BenTheFerg
Explorer
Very much enjoying it. As is the group. Entering the end game: the discovery of Ythryn & the race against rival npc exploration teams to loot the city of its secrets.
Ancalagon
Dusty Dragon
So, @Paul Farquhar has said this is not the case. Logically speaking, unless your books are different, one of you is wrong.
As you are the one making a claim that the book says X, it is up to you give us the location in the book where this is stated - this is your chance to prove you are right!
BenTheFerg
Explorer
Sigh.
I can assure you there is nothing in the book that says any form of sacrifice is working. It is really badly handled in the book. Not sure what Paul is smoking TBH
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