D&D 5E What is balance to you, and why do you care (or don't)?

[GMforPowergamers]

Wrong. When players makes forays and retreat. They often come back with enemies still hurt from the last fight. With healers, players have the advantage of a faster recovery time. It really depends on the style of game you play.

where I agree with @Vaalingrade most ways... I agree with you here. Especially in 2e and 4e but not unheard of in 3e and 5e we would figure "How long will it take for us to recover, and how much can they recover in that time" and in REALLY bad (especially against organizations or hoards)times we will hit and run to try to thin them out over days

 

[GMforPowergamers]

To the bolded part...
Up until a foe cast anti-magic field, or you encounter a beholder, or you are faced with other casters that shuts you down with counter spells.

and then you ONLY have the same weapons/armor and number of attacks of a fighter... wow almost like that 'downgrade debuff sucked' was where fighters started

(Okay not 100% the fighter up to level 10 has 1 action surge 1 second wind, and 1 feat on you)

Then the fighter looks at you and say: " Welcome to Helldritch's type of games."

you mean when you go out of your way to turn the caster into a fighter... for 1 encounter.

This is the problem with an all caster party. Too much reliance on magic will lead to these type of encounters very fast.

and never have I seen a all caster party that doesn't have some way to handle this (wait... once, we did have an all sage group once and as such our diviner, transmuter, knowledge cleric, tomb feylock (that had 0 attack cantrips) and rogue (arcane trick)/iullusionist who didn't carry a weapon.... they were shut down by ANY combat though since between them there best offenses was magic missile, and weapon of faith) but that game had little to no combat so it was okay)

lets take your things one at a time

a foe cast anti-magic field

maybe counterspell... if not fall back to weapons. most likely this shut down any magic the caster had, and if they can cast that high a spell most likely they NEED magic as much or more then us.

ou encounter a beholder,

i mean it's not our most common enemy (normally anyway) but I would say we have dealt with this more then a handful of times. I can say I can't remember a single death from beholder since 2e... wait maybe 3e (but that one also was epic and had class levels and a name so not sure it counts).

I had an encounter with 3 beholders onraised terrain and the over lap of there central eyes shut off magic to 90% of the room, and in the room under them were slave/monsters so the PCs had to fight with no magic against a bunch of brutes... but beholders have a REAL BIG flaw(especialy in 4e and 5e)... there main deadly attacks are magic rays, and so they can't use them on creatures in the antimagic cone.

faced with other casters that shuts you down with counter spells.

this one is common/uncommon.

we kinda of MAD counterspell. as a DM I pull it rarely and in exchange my players pull it never. HOWEVER if a PC does use it my next caster will have it... if the PC keeps useing it so will NPCs and we have found as fun as a "gotcha" every now and then is fun, counterspell into counterspell into counter spell is NOT fun...for any of us.

However back in 3e we did this alot.

in an all caster group that counterspell is common, I find the PCs can out counter spell the NPCs more then the other way around

Or even worse, you fight in a wild magic zone...

Okay... so you get a gotcha once (maybe) remember our casters have melee and ranged weapons.

The Hexblade and the wizards were almost crying "UNFAIR!". While the fighter and ranger were not deter one iota about the situation.

Did the Hexblade forget he with NO MAGIC is still an equal fighter? and why would the wizard complain... this is just an excuse to save spell slots to mangle the next encounter?

 

[HammerMan]

The Hexblade and the wizards were almost crying "UNFAIR!". While the fighter and ranger were not deter one iota about the situation.

Just so you know you made my friends day (maybe her week) I sent her a screen shot of your post (this part) and she was so happy someone got to play a fighter and feel tough and strong… although she is also feeling a little envious

Edit: just as I hit send she asked if I would consider running a game where magic does… and not telling the others until a level in so she could be a fighter and feel it, I told her no, but I understand.

 

[Undrave]

In the context of D&D, I identify balance following these terms:

• Options with the same opportunity cost are of the same impact, or close enough that it's highly debatable which is better.
• Everybody naturally gets a chance to be cool and nobody monopolize a third of the game while everybody just spectates.
• The DM doesn't need to adjust their adventure or encounter unless they want to. Your DM should be able to bring ANY level appropriate adventure to ANY party at the last minute and not have to worry.
• You don't get penalized for preferring one fiction over another.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

In the context of D&D, I identify balance following these terms:

• Options with the same opportunity cost are of the same impact, or close enough that it's highly debatable which is better.
• Everybody naturally gets a chance to be cool and nobody monopolize a third of the game while everybody just spectates.
• The DM doesn't need to adjust their adventure or encounter unless they want to. Your DM should be able to bring ANY level appropriate adventure to ANY party at the last minute and not have to worry.
• You don't get penalized for preferring one fiction over another.

a very good starting rule of thumb here...

I will say I don't mind OCCASIONAL breaking of these though... if after 11 games of good balance we have 1 where the ranger super shines and monopolizes 1/3 or even 1/2 the game with his amazing abilities, then the next game goes back to normal... I wont complain (and I don't know many that would).

I also don't mind MINOR deviations... if I say "I want to my fighter to be a knife fighter" and that means I deal 1d4+x instead of the longsword 1d8+x that is a power cut, and a penalty for fiction over optimization. in a perfect world there would be some cool knife fighter thing I could take to even it out a bit (in 5e I would suggest at least a 3 maybe a 5 level dip into rogue if not out right playing a rogue) but an average of 2 damage isn't really a big deal if you are able to keep up in every other way... the problem with 5e (IMO) is that since the fighter is only about fighting and dealing damage is like 2/3 the abilitey to fight and you most likely wont be more accurate... that means that fighter is WAY unfairly penalized...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Edit: just as I hit send she asked if I would consider running a game where magic does… and not telling the others until a level in so she could be a fighter and feel it, I told her no, but I understand.

i sosund like a broken record I am sure but run a game useing Middle Earth 5e. make some minor tweeks and make your own setting but only use those classes (maybe add some sub classes but you don't need to) she will thank you

 

[Helldritch]

and then you ONLY have the same weapons/armor and number of attacks of a fighter... wow almost like that 'downgrade debuff sucked' was where fighters started

(Okay not 100% the fighter up to level 10 has 1 action surge 1 second wind, and 1 feat on you)

you mean when you go out of your way to turn the caster into a fighter... for 1 encounter.

and never have I seen a all caster party that doesn't have some way to handle this (wait... once, we did have an all sage group once and as such our diviner, transmuter, knowledge cleric, tomb feylock (that had 0 attack cantrips) and rogue (arcane trick)/iullusionist who didn't carry a weapon.... they were shut down by ANY combat though since between them there best offenses was magic missile, and weapon of faith) but that game had little to no combat so it was okay)

lets take your things one at a time

maybe counterspell... if not fall back to weapons. most likely this shut down any magic the caster had, and if they can cast that high a spell most likely they NEED magic as much or more then us.

i mean it's not our most common enemy (normally anyway) but I would say we have dealt with this more then a handful of times. I can say I can't remember a single death from beholder since 2e... wait maybe 3e (but that one also was epic and had class levels and a name so not sure it counts).

I had an encounter with 3 beholders onraised terrain and the over lap of there central eyes shut off magic to 90% of the room, and in the room under them were slave/monsters so the PCs had to fight with no magic against a bunch of brutes... but beholders have a REAL BIG flaw(especialy in 4e and 5e)... there main deadly attacks are magic rays, and so they can't use them on creatures in the antimagic cone.


this one is common/uncommon.

we kinda of MAD counterspell. as a DM I pull it rarely and in exchange my players pull it never. HOWEVER if a PC does use it my next caster will have it... if the PC keeps useing it so will NPCs and we have found as fun as a "gotcha" every now and then is fun, counterspell into counterspell into counter spell is NOT fun...for any of us.

However back in 3e we did this alot.

in an all caster group that counterspell is common, I find the PCs can out counter spell the NPCs more then the other way around

Okay... so you get a gotcha once (maybe) remember our casters have melee and ranged weapons.

Did the Hexblade forget he with NO MAGIC is still an equal fighter? and why would the wizard complain... this is just an excuse to save spell slots to mangle the next encounter?

And it all depends on the level you are playing.
You keep playing under level 10? Boring as hell IMO. The fun starts around level 11 to 15. Strangely, the same levels where fighter types get their 3rd attack. Most of my campaigns ends around level 19-20 where the fighter gets their fourth attacks.

At these levels, they encounter a lot of low level casters that will cast silence spells. (Ho I know about silent spells, seems you have an all sorcerer party over there) with counter spells as back up plans. The goal in my games is exactly to shut down casters just as players are shutting enemy casters, so will I. If casting anti-magic field is the solution, so be it. The casters will get swarmed by enemies including your Hexblades and once grappled, you will be down and attacked by 6 others with advantage in an anti-magic field that means that most will hit you with their advantage. With only veterans, it may mean 80pts of damage per round, not counting possible critical. The pure fighter will have four of his attacks, will not be deprived of his main attack capacity and will simply be better than your Hexblade. Same with the barbarians, paladins and rangers. Yep, these will be locked at two attacks like you, but their non magical abilities will function all the same.

Also, beholders are dangerous, tackling 3 requires a very strong group. Mine is at level 12 now and they are terrified to attack the beholder in its lair (probably next game). The beholder isn't alone, will be flying and will fix its gaze on the casters. Unfortunately, the only good archer is the rogue and at 1d6 damage, no sneak attack damage because that AIM option in Trasha is not available, that beholder will be able to wreck havoc on the group. With all the minions and allies the beholder have, this will be the only fight in the evening and we expect it to last over the 12 round mark. A battle with an elder brain lasted 14 two weeks ago. Heck, the other group fought a dragon and fight lasted 18 rounds... With two deaths, plummeting 200 feet is notoriously bad for your health. The dragon only engaged in melee because it was downed to less than 50% of HP and I kept the rule that under 50%, the a flying creature must land or it will crash. And only a lucky crit forced the dragon to land, otherwise, I would have fled to heal, come back and make a rinse and repeat.

 

[HammerMan]

i sosund like a broken record I am sure but run a game useing Middle Earth 5e. make some minor tweeks and make your own setting but only use those classes (maybe add some sub classes but you don't need to) she will thank you

Funny. I think we talked about this before I had that book pre ordered. I have used it for non magic games.

We even made a (oops it was broken) sword sage subclass for the warrior once. We won’t be letting that in again.

 

[Undrave]

a very good starting rule of thumb here...

I will say I don't mind OCCASIONAL breaking of these though... if after 11 games of good balance we have 1 where the ranger super shines and monopolizes 1/3 or even 1/2 the game with his amazing abilities, then the next game goes back to normal... I wont complain (and I don't know many that would).

Of course, what I meant is that everybody gets a shot at getting one of those super shining moment, instead of always the same character. But also I'm REALLY not a big fan of the Ranger's 'favored terrain' system that just obliterate any interactivity and is just 'yup, you got it, no problem.' It's not a very cool 'spotlight' moment IMO.

I also don't mind MINOR deviations... if I say "I want to my fighter to be a knife fighter" and that means I deal 1d4+x instead of the longsword 1d8+x that is a power cut, and a penalty for fiction over optimization. in a perfect world there would be some cool knife fighter thing I could take to even it out a bit (in 5e I would suggest at least a 3 maybe a 5 level dip into rogue if not out right playing a rogue) but an average of 2 damage isn't really a big deal if you are able to keep up in every other way... the problem with 5e (IMO) is that since the fighter is only about fighting and dealing damage is like 2/3 the abilitey to fight and you most likely wont be more accurate... that means that fighter is WAY unfairly penalized...

The Knife Fighter should still be something neat to make up for the lack of damage. For exemple, maybe there's a style that gives them advantage when they draw their knife as part of their attack action, or maybe they land crits more easily, or maybe they get to throw their knives as a bonus action after attacking with it, that sort of thing. Or maybe they get a bonus to intimidate when they hold their knife. I'm a big fan of giving every weapons category a reason to be attractive to a player so that they don't simply always pick the same boring max damage weapon (see Rogues and Bards with Rapier...).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

And it all depends on the level you are playing.
You keep playing under level 10? Boring as hell IMO.

not only... but ingeneral we start at 3rd and we HAVE (once maybe twice) made it to 20+epic boons, on average most games end between 13 and 16 (some as early as 7th though... or lower if TPK happens)

The fun starts around level 11 to 15. Strangely, the same levels where fighter types get their 3rd attack. Most of my campaigns ends around level 19-20 where the fighter gets their fourth attacks.

even if we get to 11-15, we played MONTHS at 3-10, and I can't imagine playing a fighter for 7 levels with the rest of the party having spells

At these levels, they encounter a lot of low level casters that will cast silence spells. (Ho I know about silent spells, seems you have an all sorcerer party over there) with counter spells as back up plans. The goal in my games is exactly to shut down casters just as players are shutting enemy casters, so will I. If casting anti-magic field is the solution, so be it. The casters will get swarmed by enemies including your Hexblades and once grappled, you will be down and attacked by 6 others with advantage in an anti-magic field that means that most will hit you with their advantage. With only veterans, it may mean 80pts of damage per round, not counting possible critical. The pure fighter will have four of his attacks, will not be deprived of his main attack capacity and will simply be better than your Hexblade. Same with the barbarians, paladins and rangers. Yep, these will be locked at two attacks like you, but their non magical abilities will function all the same.

and the hexblades non magic abilities work too... 1HD (average 1hp if the same con) less and only missing the 3rd attack and action surge... and again even if 2 out of the 5-8 encounters do this, you have your show stopper spells for the other 3-6 encounters... unless EVERY encounter does this, and that would get old quick (and most likely just go back to the no one is casters... witch is the on/off we have everyone or no one)

Also, beholders are dangerous, tackling 3 requires a very strong group.

3 book stat beholders 3 trolls, 2 ogers and 10 goblins (those looked like a joke at first) in a room that as the entered there magic went down... I can't remember if they were 12th level yet but there abouts... would a fighter have helped a bit in the encounter (1 extra attack per round and an action surge would have helpped a bit.) it was tough, but at no poiint did I think a PC would die...

Mine is at level 12 now and they are terrified to attack the beholder in its lair (probably next game). The beholder isn't alone, will be flying and will fix its gaze on the casters. Unfortunately, the only good archer is the rogue and at 1d6 damage, no sneak attack damage because that AIM option in Trasha is not available, that beholder will be able to wreck havoc on the group. With all the minions and allies the beholder have, this will be the only fight in the evening and we expect it to last over the 12 round mark.

wow... I would expect in my group that fight to be the end of a 3-5 enocunter night (but maybe hit 8 rounds)

A battle with an elder brain lasted 14 two weeks ago.

wow that sounds epic... I can count on 1 hand the number of times we went past 10 rounds (and once it was cause I cheated and every other round brought in more cannon fodder)

Heck, the other group fought a dragon and fight lasted 18 rounds...

I have never seen a 5e fight last that long... wow

With two deaths, plummeting 200 feet is notoriously bad for your health.

cool... unfortinatly I am more used to my dragons doing that after they burn through my legendary resiteance and cast hold as I try to fly awya

The dragon only engaged in melee because it was downed to less than 50% of HP and I kept the rule that under 50%, the a flying creature must land or it will crash. And only a lucky crit forced the dragon to land, otherwise, I would have fled to heal, come back and make a rinse and repeat.