D&D 5E The impact of ASIs

[Lanefan]

Nah. It's just as likely to make a difference with an AC of 13 as it is with an AC of 19. It only helps if you would have missed by exactly 1, and 12's come up just as often as 18's. Otherwise you miss anyway or would have hit without it.

I think @Charlaquin has the right of it here: the +1 to damage might be relatively trivial but the +1 to hit makes, in the long run, a significant difference; because each time that extra +1 turns a miss into a hit* you get to do your normal amount of damage with the +1 on top.

I find it truly amazing sometimes just how much difference a +1 or a -1 can make to things.

* - which, regardless of the foe's AC unless it's extreme, will on average be 5% of your to-hit rolls.

 

[Lanefan]

Doubles your chances of hitting = useless for all numbers but 18. You hit on a 19 or 20 anyway and miss on a 17 and lower despite the +1. I'm not wrong. You're just blinded by the "doubling" of your chances to hit, which still means there is only one useful number you can roll for that +1 to matter, just like when hitting that AC of 13 there's only one useful number(12). And you're as likely to roll that 12 as you are the 18, which makes that +1 equally useful in both cases. The percentage increase is misleading you and causing you to overestimate the usefulness of the +1.

And you have the right of it here.

Unusual to see an argument where both participants are correct, but here it is in living colour.

 

[James Gasik]

And you have the right of it here.

Unusual to see an argument where both participants are correct, but here it is in living colour.

I'm going to explain this in video game terms. Let's calculate your average damage per round.

Let's assume you have a 9% chance to miss a melee attack. So of every potential 1 damage per round, you only do 0.91 or 0.83 of that damage.

If you increase your chance to hit by 1%, this goes up to 0.92 damage per round, which is a 1.1% effective increase.

So if you deal, typically, 1d8+5 per round with a longsword, and you attack twice, we know your potential damage is 19 damage a turn. If a battle last four rounds, your potential damage is 76 (not including crits).

But let's say you have a +9 to hit and you're up against AC 18. You have a 40% chance to miss. That reduces your average damage by 40%, to 11.4.

Increasing your chance to hit and damage by 1 (say in this case, by picking up a magic sword), only increases your chance to hit by 5%, so your average damage is now 65% of 20 per turn, or 13. That's it, you only gain 1.6 damage per turn.

Now there are some other concerns, like if you're a Battlemaster, or your character is Dex-based and you get AC and other things, but the difference between a 16 Strength and a 20 Strength is a 10% chance to hit, and a small boost to damage.

The actual amount of damage dealt will depend on the weapon and how many attacks you make.

But as Maxperson pointed out, if you were already going to hit, you will barely notice the increase to damage. All we're doing is shrinking the chance to miss.

There is a small damage increase- the difference between a greatsword fighter at level 1 with 16 Strength and a bless spell vs. the same fighter with 20 Strength is noticeable, but small, something like 1.05 damage per turn. A pretty small increase either way.

 

[Helldritch]

In the AD&D Dungeon Masters Guide, your character's ability scores changed automatically with age bracket. Physical stats gradually went down, mental stats up.

Hm. Just another way casters outshone martials.

And after losing 3 points of con, most casters, especially wizards, were left with very few HPs. Encountering a ghost often meant the end of the caster. Yes, this is crippling to melee too. But let us be honest here. As much as I would like to have the vigor of my youth, I don't. Martials are better when adult and not old. It is just pure logic. And, it was also a way to control the spell... haste.

 

[Helldritch]

Ta

I'm going to explain this in video game terms. Let's calculate your average damage per round.

Let's assume you have a 9% chance to miss a melee attack. So of every potential 1 damage per round, you only do 0.91 or 0.83 of that damage.

If you increase your chance to hit by 1%, this goes up to 0.92 damage per round, which is a 1.1% effective increase.

So if you deal, typically, 1d8+5 per round with a longsword, and you attack twice, we know your potential damage is 19 damage a turn. If a battle last four rounds, your potential damage is 76 (not including crits).

But let's say you have a +9 to hit and you're up against AC 18. You have a 40% chance to miss. That reduces your average damage by 40%, to 11.4.

Increasing your chance to hit and damage by 1 (say in this case, by picking up a magic sword), only increases your chance to hit by 5%, so your average damage is now 65% of 20 per turn, or 13. That's it, you only gain 1.6 damage per turn.

Now there are some other concerns, like if you're a Battlemaster, or your character is Dex-based and you get AC and other things, but the difference between a 16 Strength and a 20 Strength is a 10% chance to hit, and a small boost to damage.

The actual amount of damage dealt will depend on the weapon and how many attacks you make.

But as Maxperson pointed out, if you were already going to hit, you will barely notice the increase to damage. All we're doing is shrinking the chance to miss.

There is a small damage increase- the difference between a greatsword fighter at level 1 with 16 Strength and a bless spell vs. the same fighter with 20 Strength is noticeable, but small, something like 1.05 damage per turn. A pretty small increase either way.

Taken alone, yes, that single +1 does not mean a lot.
And just to make thing straight, I am the one claiming that the sweet 16 so many claim to be the end that justify all floating ASI is simply putting rubber masks on the races. BUT.
Couple it with advantage and GWM or SS and that silly +1 along with a bless spell might (or should I say does) now represents on a sure hit more than 11 points of additional damage. I have a barb/battle master that does regularly 25+ damage per attacks. With three attacks under haste and an action surge, we look at a whopping 125 to 150 damage on targets with AC 15 or less. Yes, I'll get to attack him with advantage, if his target survive...

So +1 can be inconsequential, or can make quite a big change. It depends whether or not you have an optimizer.

 

[Minigiant]

I really wonder if D&D can take a page from modern video game design and allow for simple choosable increases of class features over blanket stat boosts and external feature acquisition.

Second Wind Rank 2: regain hit points equal to 2d10 + twice your fighter level.

Second Wind Rank 3: regain hit points equal to 4d10 + four times your fighter level.

 

[Horwath]

Axe ASI's over levels and axe the ASI's from race.

modifiy standard array/point buy to reflect those changes, maybe add some from current ASI's over 19 levels into starting array.

High powered campaign:
20,18,16,14,12,10

let's say "default" campaign:
18,16,14,12,12,10

low powered campaign:
16.,14,12,12,10,8

point buy:

score 8: 0pts
score 10: 2pts
score 12: 4pts
score 14: 6pts
score 16: 10pts
score 18: 16pts
score 20: 22pts

point pool can be: 60 or 42 or 26 pts. Or what ever you feel like it suits your campaign power level.

Magic items for abilities:
Rare item:
requires attunement,
raises set ability score by +2(max of 22) or to 14, whatever is higher.

Very rare item:
requires attunement,
raises set ability score by +4(max of 24) or to 16, whatever is higher.

Legendary item:
requires attunement,
raises set ability score by +6(max of 26) or to 18, whatever is higher.

 

[Horwath]

All feats should be half-feats and we should get more of them.

Many of us said that from day 1.

 

[Blue]

That +1 is almost entirely irrelevant. At an average of 4 rounds per combat, even with two attacks it will take you 2.5 entire combats to hit one additional time. 5 combats if you only have 1 attack. And for the few hits you do get during the combat, you are doing 1 piddly point of extra damage. The +1 is very rarely going to impact a combat. And given that the vast majority of campaigns will never see 3 attacks...

If all you are doing in a combat is "a few hits", then you aren't doing your job right - that +1 damage to every hit is a big deal. And your skills will be higher. If you are a DEX fighter it is also giving you +1 AC and +1 Initiative.

Many classes have riders off their primary or secondary ability score. Bardic Inspiration uses for CHR for instance.

Basically, it depends on the ability and the class - for some between skills and other advantages it's a huge deal during an adventure. For some classes it's not as big a deal.

 

[Plaguescarred]

I like ASI as a way for characters to be able to improve over time by training or studying. I also like that they can be ignored for feats instead, giving more building options.