D&D 5E Greyhawk: Why We Need Mo' Oerth by 2024

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I mean. There was lore to be scraped but it was a deep nitpicking to pull it out. If you’re not that kinda person who gets enjoyment from that, don’t. If you like to read through fiction for worldbuilding and not characters and plot, you might get something of an appreciation for early influences on the game.

 

[Shardstone]

It's interesting that the people who keep arguing that there should be no Greyhawk are those that are heavily invested in the idea that (1) other people should not be allowed to have what they want, and (2) the pushback would actually be from fans of the setting, as opposed to the continued drumbeat of, "Fans of Greyhawk can't have Greyhawk because I, someone who doesn't like Greyhawk, keep saying that all true fans of Greyhawk don't want it!"

It's especially weird in a thread that explicitly states that a primary purpose of a rebooted Greyhawk is to attract new fans.

I mean, I suppose people could show up to threads about Nentir Vale, or Dark Sun, and start caterwauling about how no true fan of those settings would actually want it to be rebooted. But that would be rude, and unlikely to be a productive use of anyone's time.

You could only come to this reading of that quoted post if you ignored the first post I put up, where I went into detail why I personally don't think Greyhawk is interesting enough to bring back as is. Classic Snarf though, just picking random pieces of things to read and pretending like that's the whole picture!

 

[Shardstone]

But here's the thing. Those people screaming about how they want Greyhawk pure (or whatever) they're still going to buy the book. And so will people who remember liking it. And probably new people who just want to see what all the fuss is about. And that's before all the other people who just buy the "new" WoTC supplement.

It's like the Howard Stern Anecdote, he got amazing ratings on radio, why?

People who loved him listen ... to see what he'll say next;

People who hate him listen. ... to see what he'll say next.

As for what does it have to offer. Properly done it's got a completely different take than any of the current settings - and that's in addition to the fact that people LOVE nostalgia right now.

So what is the neo-Greyhawk?

As I started earlier in the post that @Snarf Zagyg ignored, I think a dungeonpunk, or a more striking dark fantasy aesthetic could be used to heighten the setting. If you got really experimental with the Caves of Chaos, or allowed someone to, I could also see that dungeon becoming something quite amazing for 2022. But all of these things would require, above all else, an aesthetic reimagining of the setting, because I really don't think the standard Greyhawk aesthetic lends itself to a new 2022 product.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You could only come to this reading of that quoted post if you ignored the first post I put up, where I went into detail why I personally don't think Greyhawk is interesting enough to bring back as is. Classic Snarf though, just picking random pieces of things to read and pretending like that's the whole picture!

I didn't ignore it. What, should I take seriously a post that completely ignores the entirety of the OP for reasons?

And if you don't like "Classic Snarf," I would suggest maybe not going into the Greyhawk threads I start to make your brilliant points about how you, personally, don't like Greyhawk because ... wait for it ... it's from the 70s and 80s and "before you were born."

Mmmkay?

'Cuz, really, if you don't like to learn about things that occurred outside of the last five years, maybe my threads aren't for you?

 

[Mort]

So what is the neo-Greyhawk?

As I started earlier in the post that @Snarf Zagyg ignored, I think a dungeonpunk, or a more striking dark fantasy aesthetic could be used to heighten the setting. If you got really experimental with the Caves of Chaos, or allowed someone to, I could also see that dungeon becoming something quite amazing for 2022. But all of these things would require, above all else, an aesthetic reimagining of the setting, because I really don't think the standard Greyhawk aesthetic lends itself to a new 2022 product.

And yet Ghosts of Saltmarsh was exactly that - a repackaging of old Greyhawk adventures updated for 5e. Then with bunch of new material to put it in better context and flesh it out a bit. But it wasn't a revolutionary new take - just a good one.

It was well presented, well reviewed and, by all accounts, sold well (though we have no access to WoTC numbers - so that's speculation).

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And yet Ghosts of Saltmarsh was exactly that - a repackaging of old Greyhawk adventures updated for 5e. Then with bunch of new material to put it in better context and flesh it out a bit. But it wasn't a revolutionary new take - just a good one.

It was well presented, well reviewed and, by all accounts, sold well (though we have no access to WoTC numbers - so that's speculation).

I know- that's why I went mentioned Saltmarsh in the OP. It's like people don't realize Greyhawk has already been featured in 5e (TfTYP as well).

And it's been well received.

ETA- I think one source of frustration that has been mentioned repeatedly is that despite having Saltmarsh released, there still isn't the ability to get official 3PP on DM's Guild for Greyhawk.

 

[Shardstone]

And yet Ghosts of Saltmarsh was exactly that - a repackaging of old Greyhawk adventures updated for 5e. Then with bunch of new material to put it in better context and flesh it out a bit. But it wasn't a revolutionary new take - just a good one.

It was well presented, well reviewed and, by all accounts, sold well (though we have no access to WoTC numbers - so that's speculation).

This is true, but that's less because of it being Greyhawk and more because it was a pretty isolated set of adventures. They even say in that book you could put it anywhere, and if you had told me it was from the Forgotten Realms, I don't think I would have disbelieved you.

 

[Eric V]

I'm not a fan of the Forgotten Realms, but I don't see how I couldn't do literally anything and everything in Greyhawk in the Forgotten Realms, or even better, as a homebrew product.

So, to answer your question: If the setting were at the time of From the Ashes, it's a world at war. Or, more specifically, coming out of a war, and preparing for what will certainly be the Last War. Leaning heavily into that, that would be a vibe that is not in the FR.

Good is on the ropes, but Evil is fractured as well (in that no alliances are possible). Lots of questions remain about who will side with whom, or at least what can be done to secure those alliances. It's big stakes, but the PCs are front and center, with no Harpers or Elminster around (there's the Circle of Eight, but they obviously can't be trusted).

The bleakness, the fiends as troops for evil overlords, the mysteries that are tied into the salvation of good people if they can be solved...basically the last chapter of Ivid the Undying...that all feels pretty unique to me in a way I can't exactly recreate in another setting.

 

[Shardstone]

So, to answer your question: If the setting were at the time of From the Ashes, it's a world at war. Or, more specifically, coming out of a war, and preparing for what will certainly be the Last War. Leaning heavily into that, that would be a vibe that is not in the FR.

Good is on the ropes, but Evil is fractured as well (in that no alliances are possible). Lots of questions remain about who will side with whom, or at least what can be done to secure those alliances. It's big stakes, but the PCs are front and center, with no Harpers or Elminster around (there's the Circle of Eight, but they obviously can't be trusted).

The bleakness, the fiends as troops for evil overlords, the mysteries that are tied into the salvation of good people if they can be solved...basically the last chapter of Ivid the Undying...that all feels pretty unique to me in a way I can't exactly recreate in another setting.

Your first paragraph is the entire pitch behind 5E Eberron and Dragonlance. I'm still not seeing what makes it feel so unique, when those things I could easily pull into Eberron or Dragonlance with very little difficulty.

I guess my greater point is: if the aesthetics of the setting are identical to another setting in print, then the setting has to add something very new to stand out. Greyhawk so far only adds things that I already have in other settings. Despite being the first setting, I'm not seeing how Greyhawk as-is can really convince me to buy it when I could play a magical world war with Eberron, Dragonlance, or even the new 5E Midnight that just came out (which is very high quality, btw!).

This isn't to say that Greyhawk can't do this, but in order to do it, we'd have to really be willing to innovate on it IMO!

 

[Eric V]

Your first paragraph is the entire pitch behind 5E Eberron and Dragonlance. I'm still not seeing what makes it feel so unique, when those things I could easily pull into Eberron or Dragonlance with very little difficulty.

I guess my greater point is: if the aesthetics of the setting are identical to another setting in print, then the setting has to add something very new to stand out. Greyhawk so far only adds things that I already have in other settings. Despite being the first setting, I'm not seeing how Greyhawk as-is can really convince me to buy it when I could play a magical world war with Eberron, Dragonlance, or even the new 5E Midnight that just came out (which is very high quality, btw!).

This isn't to say that Greyhawk can't do this, but in order to do it, we'd have to really be willing to innovate on it IMO!

I have never played Eberron, so I can't speak on it.

DL, though, is more of a deity-based fight just taking place on Krynn, though. While there are gods in GH, that's not the basis for the conflict, really.

I don't find the aesthetics from the GH:FtA setting identical to anything else in the D&D universe, but maybe I have bad vision.