D&D 5E Greyhawk: Why We Need Mo' Oerth by 2024

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I broadly agree with your every point, except a return to the 576CY timeline. Let the past plotlines stay in the past (adding "new" stuff to the 576CY period will just set off much wailing & gnashing of teeth amongst the grognards, anyway). I think advancing the timeline to 601CY for a new release would free up a lot of creative space for both the WotC writers & DMs everywhere, without stepping on any toes.
To be fair, they already did reset the timeline in 5E, in Ghosts of Saltmarsh.
 
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TwiceBorn2

Adventurer
I broadly agree with your every point, except a return to the 576CY timeline. Let the past plotlines stay in the past (adding "new" stuff to the 576CY period will just set off much wailing & gnashing of teeth amongst the grognards, anyway). I think advancing the timeline to 601CY for a new release would free up a lot of creative space for both the WotC writers & DMs everywhere, without stepping on any toes.

I would go even farther, maybe even as far as 676 CY... the world should still be familiar enough then, while still providing plenty of space to create some distance from the events of 576-598 CY and generate new conflicts that don't dogpile on top of prior ones. I really hate it when a setting has one world- or continent-threatening event/adventure path after another, which is how I felt about Paizo APs after a while. Oh, look, another long forgotten slumbering god is about to wake up and threaten to destroy the world (or country)... again!

I would also not advance the timeline any further once the new 'setting guide' is released. Publish additional sourcebooks and adventures if you want, but leave it to DMs to incorporate those products--and update their own timeles--as they wish. No need for that to be carved in stone (or wood, even).

EDIT: If we're celebrating the 50th anniversary of D&D/Greyhawk, then perhaps the 50th anniversary Greyhawk product's timeline should be advanced 50 years from the original folio... so 626 CY?
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
It sounds like the problem is more with Critical Role superfans than any real expectation that you can't make a setting your own.

I mean, I'm a huge lore junkie, and I totally devoured Forgotten Realms lore during the 90's. Does that mean I'm upset that firearms aren't running around the Realms anymore? No, times change and so do settings.

Heck, while it's effects were reversed, the Spellplague did happen, and for awhile, chunks of another alternate world were dropped onto Toril. And the Dragonborn didn't go anywhere, so...yeah.

I don't see WotC changes as being any different than a DM deciding a world has suddenly manifested a new continent or an extra town, or that Filmore Mc Filibuster is no longer the mayor of Filibustershire, and was ousted by Lorne the Loquacious.

If someone wants to play a Matt Mercer game exactly the way he runs it, they can figure out how to pay Matt to DM for them. In the meantime, if you, like most DM's, do this pro bono out of a love for the game, your players can either grow up or DM for themselves.

And that's an admitted player advocate talking!
 


Faolyn

(she/her)
Human supremacist ninja nazis.

Space ships.

Secret clones on the moon.

Infinite parallel worlds, including the Alice pocket dimension.

Every government type from “rule by demi-god” to “magocracy” to “democracy/republic” to “appointed autocracy” - and lots more.

Thariz…. Shut your mouth. We don’t talk about that….

Lum and Leuk-o, the original artificers.

Evard (I hear tentacles are big with the anime fans…).

Lands of black ice. Time travel. Flying monkeys and gateways to Barsoom and alternate WW2.

But yes - it’s just the Forgotten Realms.
So if they (whoever they might be) produced a Greyhawk that really played up these elements, made the setting into the Magi-Tech/Science Fantasy setting these examples imply... how much would serious Greyhawk fans really like that? Honest question here.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
So if they (whoever they might be) produced a Greyhawk that really played up these elements, made the setting into the Magi-Tech/Science Fantasy setting these examples imply... how much would serious Greyhawk fans really like that? Honest question here.

So, here's the thing that I keep emphasizing. There will always be a small portion of people that will be unhappy no matter what you do. It's almost like ... they'd rather be that way. WoTC could literally re-print the 1983 boxed set, have all their designers promise to say, "What would Gary do?" before writing every sentence, and send all their product through a English - Gygaxian Verbiage translator ... and there would be those who insist that this is somehow still not true to the original vision. You just can't make everyone happy.

For that reason, the three top priorities have to be as follows (in order of importance):

1. Make a good product.
2. Make something appealing to new fans (because without new fans, Greyhawk will end up dying anyway).
3. Make something that continues to appeal to almost all old Greyhawk fans.

Ideally, you hit all three. The thing is ... if you hit 1, you're going to hit 3! I think we can look at ST: SNW as an illustrative example. It's only been five episodes, and it can still go south, but I'd say that even though it's playing fast and loose with some of the old "canon," older fans of Star Trek are forgiving because it's a good show that captures the essence of Trek. People forgive a lot when the product is good.

In the end, most fans of Greyhawk just want something good, and they want the DMs Guild open to new Greyhawk material.

If they get that, the only other thing they are going to want is a few Easter eggs or some fan service so they can write multiple long posts on ENWorld about the obscure antecedents of the reference in The Strategic Review.

Um, hypothetically.
 
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Cruentus

Adventurer
So if they (whoever they might be) produced a Greyhawk that really played up these elements, made the setting into the Magi-Tech/Science Fantasy setting these examples imply... how much would serious Greyhawk fans really like that? Honest question here.
I'm not a serious Greyhawk fan, but for me (who just started DMing a 2e campaign in Greyhawk), if they played up those elements in a new release, I wouldn't buy it or touch it with a ten foot pole, because I'm not interested in 5e anymore, its moved away from how I like to play in, and run my games. I'd also continue doing what I'm doing, using the material I want to include, that is out there already in print, and not really complain about it.

To @Snarf Zagyg priorities, I would put a wager that if they did #2, they'd lose the "Greyhawk fans", for many of the same reasons that folks complain about the settings that are out now. Getting Greyhawk into DMs Guild would likely help all the fans overall, and would be the best outcome of whatever WOTC decided. But I also disagree that Greyhawk would "die". People still use the setting in everything from OSR to 5e, so its not likely it'll disappear, it just won't have any "official" support. And frankly, with the quality of 3PP stuff lately, being "official" doesn't carry as much weight as it used to (at least not at my table, and we were always "super rules lawyers only official everything" back in the day).
 

A good product is a good product. If a revived Greyhawk has the luck of having such a product, you can bet that old and new fans will jump on board.

But the most important thing to me is:" If WotC does not want to do a Greyhawk product, then they should open the Guild for 3PP to do what they will not do."

Edit:" Kinda of ninja'd by @Cruentus for the 3PP part..."
 

TwiceBorn2

Adventurer
A focus on magi-tech wouldn't be a selling point for me... unless they set it in the setting's elder days, i.e., when the Suel Imperium, the Empire of Vecna, the Baklunish Empire, Keraptis, Blackmoor (?), etc. were at their zenith. A time when magic (and, in some places, tech) were at their height, and all the legendary artifacts and relics were in "someone's" hands.

But regardless, I will purchase any dedicated Greyhawk set at this point, regardless of content... if only out of curiosity, or to mine ideas (not that I don't already have plenty of those). Sad, I know.
 


JohnF

Explorer
Gord was dual wielding when Drizzt was still in diapers.
Oh, snap!

Aside: If Greyhawk doesn't see a remake beyond Saltmarsh, which ONE classic product would folks suggest could be the best source of inspiration to launch a home campaign that could sustainably move a 5e group through many, many sessions of exciting emergent world/setting/adventuring/make-it-your-own-Greyhawk fun?
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I'm not a serious Greyhawk fan, but for me (who just started DMing a 2e campaign in Greyhawk), if they played up those elements in a new release, I wouldn't buy it or touch it with a ten foot pole, because I'm not interested in 5e anymore, its moved away from how I like to play in, and run my games. I'd also continue doing what I'm doing, using the material I want to include, that is out there already in print, and not really complain about it.
<shrug> "Twas just a thought. Not being a Greyhawk fan, I'm hard pressed to find reasons to want to play in the setting. Saying that it has weird and cool elements like a crashed spaceship and moon-clones makes it interesting and different, but if they're regulated to a few tiny tidbits of weirdness here and there then, to me, it goes back to a being fairly standard setting where the weirdness is more jarring than interesting.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Oh, snap!

Aside: If Greyhawk doesn't see a remake beyond Saltmarsh, which ONE classic product would folks suggest could be the best source of inspiration to launch a home campaign that could sustainably move a 5e group through many, many sessions of exciting emergent world/setting/adventuring/make-it-your-own-Greyhawk fun?
I got you, Fam:


This was originally meant to be a complete solution for DMs to build out years of Adventure, and frankly, it's almost entirely Edition or even system neutral. It has a lot of the features that @AcererakTriple6 has praised in Wildemount, such as population details and a robust but usable weather generation system.
 

Starfox

Adventurer
I play in the Greyhawk setting. I like it becasue it feels more coherent than kitchen sink settings like the Forgotten Realms, and still has a very great variety. In the Forgotten Realms, civilization exists in separate islands with little contact. Each genre has its own area: if you want generic fantasy its the coast, for chivalry there is Cormyr, a more points of light setting in the Dalelands etc (I am not a FR scholar and some of these examples might be wrong, but I thik you get the idea). In Greyhawk the nations border each other and infulence each other: The Great Kingdom and Nyrond might be arch-enemies, but they are also mirror images of each other. Having a world originally made to set miniatures battles in it means there are actual international politics. I like that.

But this doesnot mean that I want a new updated Greyhawk setting. I like that the official story of Greyhawk has ended. I use the Greyhawk Wars and Crimson Tide as the last canon events, after that Greyhawk is my own. This allows me to mix things up, for example the Northern Province of the great Kindgdom is now a modified Republic of Andoran from Golarion.

A new version of Greyhawk set in the original era would work for me, but I don't think it would be of much use. My Greyhawk is a socially more advanced setting. The original setting is for me set in 1E, where the only arcane powers available were magic-users and illusionists. Some years later with 2E, lesser bards (not the 1E bards) began dabbling in arcane magic. Even later in 3E, Pathfinder, 5E, and homebrew rules, magic flourished further. In my Greyhawk a century later, there is a plephora of magic traditions. Magic has bloomed, not declined. The same goes for almost every field. Cannon are changing warfare. Merchant cities are changing seafaring. The scarlet Brotherhood has gone underground and become a colonialist mercantile force, close to 19th century racism. Lots and lots of changes that would not exist in an official published setting.

I wouldn't mind a new edition of Greyhawk, but I likely wouldn't support it much either.
 

I got you, Fam:


This was originally meant to be a complete solution for DMs to build out years of Adventure, and frankly, it's almost entirely Edition or even system neutral. It has a lot of the features that @AcererakTriple6 has praised in Wildemount, such as population details and a robust but usable weather generation system.
I need this POD stat
 

Let's remember if Hasbro wants the return of the old lines, it is not only to publish TTRPG sourcebooks but also other type of products, and with this goal those lines are going to need a metaplot. In this time all the metaplots, but FR are practically frozen, but after the action-live movie we can guess there will be other projects.
 





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