Friday Musing: What If It Wasn't War Games

[Mezuka]

You have that a bit backwards. David Megarry's Dungeon! was inspired by Arneson's Blackmoor game. Also worth noting that TSR published both those games, but neither were created in house. They were both created from or inspired by Dave Arneson's Blackmoor game.

:-D Gary didn't add any of his ideas into the Blackmoor document that became OD&D?

 

[Reynard]

:-D Gary didn't add any of his ideas into the Blackmoor document that became OD&D?

Gary rewrote most of Arneson's work in the name of "editing." I'm not saying that diminishes Arneson's contribution, but much of what saw print was Gygax.

 

[Mezuka]

Gary rewrote most of Arneson's work in the name of "editing." I'm not saying that diminishes Arneson's contribution, but much of what saw print was Gygax.

Then, I maintain my statement that a board game influenced the design of OD&D 1974, the first ever published rpg.

 

[Reynard]

Then, I maintain my statement that a board game influenced the design of OD&D 1974, the first ever published rpg.

No. Dungeon was based on the Blackmoor campaign, so Dungeon and D&D share a (direct) ancestor. That's not the saame thing as D&D being based on a board game.

 

[dragoner]

Squad Leader had a blank leader chit, that you ran through scenarios to advance, I forget the whole system, I have said that was the first RPG I played.

 

[Reynard]

Squad Leader had a blank leader chit, that you ran through scenarios to advance, I forget the whole system, I have said that was the first RPG I played.

Now we are heading toward defining exactly what an RPG is. If you ask most RPG gamers, I think "pretending to be someone else" is going to figure in somehwere, but for PC games and board games, "RPG" often equates to individual unit stat increases/level advancement.

 

[dragoner]

Now we are heading toward defining exactly what an RPG is. If you ask most RPG gamers, I think "pretending to be someone else" is going to figure in somehwere, but for PC games and board games, "RPG" often equates to individual unit stat increases/level advancement.

There is also the part of "what the rules support" or the mechanics, which is another big discussion time. I mean, it can be good if done well, except if not, better to not be there at all. Though this does not touch that RPG's are often five years are six months game time, like a campaign I recently ran was, vs a PC or board game it would be absurd to think of lasting that long.

 

[Reynard]

There is also the part of "what the rules support" or the mechanics, which is another big discussion time. I mean, it can be good if done well, except if not, better to not be there at all. Though this does not touch that RPG's are often five years are six months game time, like a campaign I recently ran was, vs a PC or board game it would be absurd to think of lasting that long.

The question of whether an RPG has to have rules to support "roleplaying" is a perennial one. Also -- and this came up in another thread -- I don't think length of play has any bearing on it. I have seen great one shot RPGs as well as years long ongoing wargames.

 

[dragoner]

The question of whether an RPG has to have rules to support "roleplaying" is a perennial one. Also -- and this came up in another thread -- I don't think length of play has any bearing on it. I have seen great one shot RPGs as well as years long ongoing wargames.

I have not seen war games go on that long, some do take a while though, not talking Berg's North Africa though. I think the distinction of a one-shot for an RPG means it is its own thing vs a campaign, which is expected to be long term, at least ideally. I mean, r/rpg is full of threads saying how their campaign died after a few sessions, and "what went wrong?" A lot of what I see in rules discussions are D&D vs the other games, and that encompasses a lot of subjects from theory, mechanics, role playing, ad nauseum.

 

[Reynard]

I have not seen war games go on that long, some do take a while though, not talking Berg's North Africa though. I think the distinction of a one-shot for an RPG means it is its own thing vs a campaign, which is expected to be long term, at least ideally. I mean, r/rpg is full of threads saying how their campaign died after a few sessions, and "what went wrong?" A lot of what I see in rules discussions are D&D vs the other games, and that encompasses a lot of subjects from theory, mechanics, role playing, ad nauseum.

The definition of "long term" is fuzzy at best. Some people mean literal decades, while others mean a year. WotC has kind of arbitrarily decided 18 months is about right, and most people I know who played Pathfinder APs said a good AP was a 2 or 3 year commitment.

As to long wargames: that's admittedly rare, but I know people who have been playing ASL monthly and continuously for years.