D&D General Run Away!

[iserith]

I don't understand the humiliation angle or the mounting resentment that you mentioned. In my experience, the only people who are going to mock or punish a player for running (or anything else, really) are their fellow players.

You're right about the clunky chase system, though. Someone needs to fix it.

I think what works best is for the DM to determine whether a detailed chase suits their theme or they don't really want to play that out and have a simpler method to resolve it. I propose the latter upthread here. Always choose options and adjust rules to suit your theme and setting, I say.

For something more like the DMG rules, but less clunky in my view (since it does away with tracking distance) is something like this:

The Chase Begins
If a creature leaves the area shown by the map and another creature pursues, move to the Chase screen. The quarry is placed in Zone H. The hunter is placed in Zone C.

If the quarry has a faster speed than the hunter, the quarry can automatically escape if they so choose.

Fly, You Fools!
The quarry goes first, moving from its current zone to the next one, but not before encountering a random wilderness complication that may impede progress.

The hunter goes next, moving from its current zone to the next one, encountering the same complication.

A Complication Ensues
The DM presents the complication. The hunter and quarry must describe how it is dealing with the complication and make any relevant ability checks. If there is more than one hunter or quarry, the creature dealing with the complication cannot have already dealt with a complication (unless all hunters or quarry have done so already).

Hide!
If the quarry was successful in dealing with the complication, the quarry may attempt to hide, making a Dexterity (Stealth) check against the hunter's passive Perception score. If the hunter failed at dealing with the complication when moving into the current zone, this check is made at advantage.

If the attempt to hide is successful, the quarry escapes and is safely away from the hunter, but cannot help other quarry. If the attempt to hide is not successful, the chase continues (repeat, starting at Fly, You Fools!). Failing by 5 or more can sometimes carry additional consequences.

No Place Left to Run
If the quarry fails to hide in or before Section E, the hunter catches up to them and an encounter follows, starting at a range of 1d6 x 10 feet.

 

[Reynard]

If the quarry has a faster speed than the hunter, the quarry can automatically escape if they so choose.

If speed was everything, humanity would have starved in pre-history. I don't think comparing base speeds is particularly helpful as a way to resolve a chase.

 

[CleverNickName]

because the DM really, really wants to? Nah, bro.

I think this is the crux of the disagreement, so correct me if I'm wrong. And I can't speak for all DMs out there...but at my table, if I want the players to run from a battle, it's probably not because I find it amusing (okay there was that one time...) I'm probably trying to progress (or save!) the campaign.

Different DMs are going to answer these questions differently, but:

The players are exploring a dangerous area. The DM rolls a random encounter, and a Deadly monster arrives. Should the DM only use certain monsters that the characters have good odds of winning against? how good should those odds be? should the DM not be rolling for random encounters at all? What does a 'dangerous area' even look like?

The players assume that because it's "just a random encounter," they will defeat it handily. The DM knows that this monster is beyond them, and drops an escape point into the game (maybe a nearby cave), then encourages the players to use it. They don't. Rather, they are offended at the mere suggestion of retreat, especially from the DM, and so they double-down. Should the DM not have suggested they retreat? Should the DM have used a different rescue device, like a party of NPCs save the day, or the animator suffering a fatal heart attack? Should the DM not interfere at all?

Dice are rolled, to the most likely outcome. The player characters are all dead, the story is over, and fingers are pointed. The players blame the DM, the DM blames the players, but is anybody at fault, really? Should the DM have shielded them from bad consequences? if so, which ones? Should all battles be victories? After all, 'this is a game about heroes not corpses' but it's still a game.

 

[iserith]

If speed was everything, humanity would have starved in pre-history. I don't think comparing base speeds is particularly helpful as a way to resolve a chase.

This isn't an attempt to simulate pre-history humanity. It's a way to resolve the chase reasonably quickly in certain circumstances. Or shall we play out a shambling mound (20 ft. speed) chasing the PCs (25 or 30 ft. speed) through the forest?

 

[DND_Reborn]

Anyway -- what is your view on PCs fleeing fights? Do you see it happen relatively regularly? Do you design encounters to make it necessary? What is the GM's role, if any, in the party deciding to stand or flee?

Since I've been busy with other topics, I haven't had a a chance to review everything in the thread yet, but here we go...

1. Running Away is difficult with the current rule set. Even moving to the chase mechanics often don't provide an out for the party.
2. If the PCs are getting beaten badly, even trying a fighting withdrawal is often not effective.
3. The scenario (and monster's intent/purpose/motive/intelligence) often determine what should happen if the PCs run.

Now, two big issues:
4. Monsters have a hard time running away as well! How many times have DMs insisted a monster fight to the death instead of trying to run or surrender? Monsters shouldn't want to die, either, but I often see DMs running them like they have no other purpose in the game other than to die.
5. PCs wait too long and by the time they consider retreating, one or more are practically down and out (if not already). Players should monitor their PCs' hp more closely and realize when it is time to beat a hasty retreat. But, IME, they don't worry about it until the very next hit will likley take them out. This means they can't flee for risk of an OA that will drop them.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I have for now.

 

[kenada]

It goes back to what I was talking about in my first post.

Forcing a rout is an interesting thing in non-interactive fiction, but the player is the one experiencing it by proxy. The hero you're playing is forced to break and run like Brave Sir Robin and they KNOW it's because either the DM is trying to make it happen or purposefully making things unfair by not following the encounter guidelines.

Thus, humiliation and resentment. I forced to either be a coward or die by someone expressly trying to make that a thing despite knowing I don't want it and that I'm giving up valuable free time to play with them. What's there not to be resentful about?

If I set an old school Paladin to fall through a sadistic choice, I'm in the wrong.

If I force a player's character to do any other thing they're not cool with, I'm in the wrong.

But Forcing a rout is okay because the DM really, really wants to? Nah, bro.

If a group is playing gritty adventure rather than heroic fantasy, where’s the problem? I think there are some assumptions at play that don’t hold universally across different types of games.

 

[CleverNickName]

@DND_Reborn your points #4 and #5 are solid gold.

 

[DND_Reborn]

@DND_Reborn your points #4 and #5 are solid gold.

Gracias!

 

[iserith]

Since I've been busy with other topics, I haven't had a a chance to review everything in the thread yet, but here we go...

1. Running Away is difficult with the current rule set. Even moving to the chase mechanics often don't provide an out for the party.
2. If the PCs are getting beaten badly, even trying a fighting withdrawal is often not effective.
3. The scenario (and monster's intent/purpose/motive/intelligence) often determine what should happen if the PCs run.

Now, two big issues:
4. Monsters have a hard time running away as well! How many times have DMs insisted a monster fight to the death instead of trying to run or surrender? Monsters shouldn't want to die, either, but I often see DMs running them like they have no other purpose in the game other than to die.
5. PCs wait too long and by the time they consider retreating, one or more are practically down and out (if not already). Players should monitor their PCs' hp more closely and realize when it is time to beat a hasty retreat. But, IME, they don't worry about it until the very next hit will likley take them out. This means they can't flee for risk of an OA that will drop them.

I'm sure there's more, but that's all I have for now.

1. The "out" isn't so much the moving and Dashing - it's the hiding. Cold comfort for someone in heavy armor unless they roll particularly well, but there are ways to mitigate that (Inspiration or working together, for example). I've used these rules a lot (or modified versions of them) and it's all about the hiding since that's the means to escape.

4. The existing chase rules work for this, if a bit clunky in my opinion.

5. That's totally on the players paying attention, learning from past mistakes, and implementing solutions in my view.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The players are exploring a dangerous area. The DM rolls a random encounter, and a Deadly monster arrives. Should the DM only use certain monsters that the characters have good odds of winning against? how good should those odds be? should the DM not be rolling for random encounters at all? What does a 'dangerous area' even look like?

In my philosophy?

The I would prefer no random encounters period. Lettings the dice rule the game is one of the things I hate most.