D&D (2024) Will we get 5 tiers of game in 5.5 insted of current 4?

[Jer]

With respect, in AD&D they gave you some followers, and told you jack about how to play kingdom building.

"They knew what to do with it, but didn't actually do it," seems an odd assertion.

And the thing is they DID actually do it - for BECMI, in the Companion set. Where they had Dominion management rules and the War Machine for that kind of mid-high level activity. They just never did it for AD&D IIRC - which I've always found kind of odd.

(Now it's been decades since I've looked at those rules and even longer since I actually used them in a campaign, so the rosy memories of my youth that say they worked ok are probably wrong - or at least missing all of the parts we ignored to get them to work. But they did have them! They tried to fulfill that promise somewhere!)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I am not a proponent of classes to be balanced. At least not by level. A wizard should have a harder time to level than the fighter

okay XP talk...

a lot of people just compare the charts, like everyone got the same XP. about 2 years into 2e for us we met someone that showed us we missed a rule and made level comparisons even harder. Class based XP.

now XP was tracked sepretly... so I had a high level like 13/7 thief wizard because I stole spell books that were worth a ton of GP and as such XP.

edit and HD used to have people complain about 'kill stealing'

fighter fights 3 rounds against the warlord, the wizard throws a SoD and kills it... nobody gets HD xp... or worse yet 2 fighters against 3 enemies trying to get the 'kill shot in' to get the 20,30, maybe 60xp for it.

 

[Helldritch]

And the thing is they DID actually do it - for BECMI, in the Companion set. Where they had Dominion management rules and the War Machine for that kind of mid-high level activity. They just never did it for AD&D IIRC - which I've always found kind of odd.

(Now it's been decades since I've looked at those rules and even longer since I actually used them in a campaign, so the rosy memories of my youth that say they worked ok are probably wrong - or at least missing all of the parts we ignored to get them to work. But they did have them! They tried to fulfill that promise somewhere!)

They worked out quite well.
One thing is often forgotten is the fact that high level play should almost always be planar hopping. At this point, the characters are supposed to be legends and the threats of the mundane world should not be sufficient for them. Gods might ask them to thread where they are not allowed because of ancient pacts and edicts. But it is not always so. At least, not all adventures should be the end of the world...

 

[Helldritch]

okay XP talk...

a lot of people just compare the charts, like everyone got the same XP. about 2 years into 2e for us we met someone that showed us we missed a rule and made level comparisons even harder. Class based XP.
View attachment 254486

now XP was tracked sepretly... so I had a high level like 13/7 thief wizard because I stole spell books that were worth a ton of GP and as such XP.

Yep. And?
That is exactly what I am talking about. But remember that back then, the backstab ability was at best meh... You needed to be in the back and unnoticed. Unless able to become invisible, you were good for one backstab per fight. If a DM was generous, you could backstab once every two or three rounds depending on circumstances and do not forget that you had to divide your experience by two and then apply it to each classes if applicable.
So in your thief example. You stole a spell book worth 10,000 gold. That does not mean 5000 xp for both thief and wizard. Only for the thief. And if your exp would bring you more than one level you would lose that exp. (I don't quite remember if it was 1xp shy of next level or just flush to the level though. Could check later.) This means that a 2nd level thief finding/stealing this book, would lose 3500xp.

But yes, this way of doing things was more to my taste too. Good job on bring up that part.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yep. And?

and it doesn't work as well.

That is exactly what I am talking about. But remember that back then, the backstab ability was at best meh...

I don't know double or tipple damage was pretty good but 4 or 5 times modifiers got pretty awesome

you were good for one backstab per fight.

yup... 1 big hit, then sit back and relax or play secondary fighter.

had to divide your experience by two and then apply it to each classes if applicable.
So in your thief example. You stole a spell book worth 10,000 gold. That does not mean 5000 xp for both thief and wizard. Only for the thief. And if your exp would bring you more than one level you would lose that exp. (I don't quite remember if it was 1xp shy of next level or just flush to the level though. Could check later.) This means that a 2nd level thief finding/stealing this book, would lose 3500xp.

I don't remember the cost of everything. I remember the number and levels of the spells got the price up for the book. I also remember theives leveling almost everygame even multi classes ones if they were trying hard enough... other classes had boom or bust things and as I said above it lead to issue... who got that kill? did that spell help or just deal damage?

you were compareing a fighter to a wizard... and saying the wizard was 1 level higher, but it could be 2 or 3 if they got to use big spells and as such stole kills from the fighter while getting some for themselves...

But yes, this way of doing things was more to my taste too. Good job on bring up that part.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think it's pretty bold to assume XP is going to last much longer as a primary assumption, much less assume we're going to make XP progression more difficult to use and frustrating for the players to experience (yay! everyone but me levels! I'm sure going to keep playing this character that hinders my progression for a long, long time!).

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I think it's pretty bold to assume XP is going to last much longer as a primary assumption, much less assume we're going to make XP progression more difficult to use and frustrating for the players to experience (yay! everyone but me levels! I'm sure going to keep playing this character that hinders my progression for a long, long time!).

I think I had more tolerance for that when I was younger

 

[Mind of tempest]

I think I had more tolerance for that when I was younger

I had it in video games when I was young, I am nearing my mid-twenties I have little patience left, gods I feel old.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I think I had more tolerance for that when I was younger

For us, I feel like it was a factor of living on the same campus.

I vividly remember standing around at the end of the night, waiting for the DM to total up the XP plus and bonuses someone might have earned and writing them down on our sheets. Then we walked across the way to our dorms and stayed up another two hours on AIM or playing Smash Brothers.

Then I remember one night, years later we're at the DM's house, I've got a 30 mile drive ahead of me, a couple others are going 20 the other direction and the DM; she's suddenly like 'why am I keeping you for this? How about I say you leveled and everyone gets to go home'.

And no one in our group ever used XP again.

 

[Helldritch]

and it doesn't work as well.

I don't know double or tipple damage was pretty good but 4 or 5 times modifiers got pretty awesome

yup... 1 big hit, then sit back and relax or play secondary fighter.

A good thief with great equipment could do a few backstabs in a fight. But unless he got lucky, it was usually one or none. Using a short bow (since the thief's AC was not very good) or resorting to thrown daggers/darts was usually the best possible outcome unless multiclassed. Otherwise, the thief was in deep s**t.

I don't remember the cost of everything. I remember the number and levels of the spells got the price up for the book. I also remember theives leveling almost everygame even multi classes ones if they were trying hard enough... other classes had boom or bust things and as I said above it lead to issue... who got that kill? did that spell help or just deal damage?

Most exp would come from the gold (1ed) anyways and exp from monsters was almost abysmal. Since gold would be shared equally, it meant that whomever got a kill did not went up as fast as you might remember.

you were compareing a fighter to a wizard... and saying the wizard was 1 level higher, but it could be 2 or 3 if they got to use big spells and as such stole kills from the fighter while getting some for themselves...

This is not what I remember. The highest level member of any group was usually the thief (unless low level and a druid was there...) and above level 5 the thief could be higher than the average by 3 levels! And if the thief was especially good in take risks bonus for traps and chests (AKA Stealing the treasure before it was shared), you could add another level. The slowest class to acquire level because of kills was exactly the wizard (then the illusionist for obvious reasons). This was a bit alleviated in 2nd edition, but in that edition, all kills were shared equally. Leaving only the table you so graciously shared with us (and which I had all but forgotten) to bring a bit discrepancy in the levels in a group.