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D&D 5E 5e isn't a Golden Age of D&D Lorewise, it's Silver at best.

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
What false dichotomy? If you look at all the documentation produced for FR over the years, it's easily hundreds of pages. Throw in the canon novels and it's thousands. Most people I've played with don't care. Give them a map, a few sentences about the different regions and they're good to go. As long as they know the difference between the flaming fist and the red wizards, it's all good. The wiki entry for just the harper organization is over 3,000 words. If I paste the entry into a word document (to get word count), it's 7 pages of dense text. It's too much lore for most people, all they care about it is that the harpers are the good guys.

I made no comment about how much documentation is enough, just that too much is not needed for most people who only care about high level stuff. Some people love thousands of words describing every major organization but in my experience they're the minority. That's all. 🤷‍♂️
depends on if you are just using them to bail out the player or if they are for whatever reason a major feature of the champian but even then three pages should do well.
 

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Parmandur

Book-Friend
Ah, but that's not true.

I've said that VRGtR is a mixture of stuff that's detailed enough, and other stuff that's cursory. I don't think VRGtR is intentionally "shallow", but it is necessarily cursory because they're jamming a huge amount in to an relatively low page-count. This is particularly a problem with the more-changed or entirely-novel realms, because you can't rely on older material if you're having difficulty getting a sense of what they're supposed to be like.

Re: "usable for actual play", that just sounds absolute nonsense to me. Like literally nonsense. There's no sense that you have a genuine belief in what you're saying and actually run/have run a regular VRGtR game (do you, even? I'm talking VRGtR not running Strahd, note), because you're not actually arguing it, you're just asserting it, and you're asserting something a fanboy would inevitably assert, whilst having a long history of being completely uncritical of WotC. So I'm unable to discern whether you actually mean this, or whether this is a knee-jerk reaction to criticism of a WotC product.

If you actually made an argument, and provided examples, rather than "running for the door" as I put it, it would be extremely easy to tell if you really meant it here.

As a general point, I've played and run RPGs for 33 years now, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on when I'm getting "my money's worth" setting-wise or campaign-wise. I would assert that people in general do not spend money on a specific setting to not have details specific to that setting. This idea that people buy a setting but don't actually want any setting details seems pretty funny/fantastical to me. Obviously settings can go too far, but that's usually a very specific communication issue/customer requirements mismatch.

Look at Ptolus for example. It's a ridiculously detailed setting. Laughably. Wildly detailed. But it's much-praised. Why? Because the people who buy it want a detailed setting. That's a selling point. Whereas 2E's Forgotten Realms material was much criticised because a lot of it wasn't what people wanted - it was needlessly overdetailed when people wanted something more like Eberron's approach (to give a 5E example), or for that matter WotC's 3E FR approach. I don't really buy that someone buying VRGtR would be less happy if there was a bit more detail in the actual setting, like say, 33% more, maybe even 50% more. On the contrary, I think a lot of people who thought VRGtR was a "solid" book, like a 7/10 book, like myself, would have seen it as an absolute classic, had it been, well better as a setting book.

I think that'll be one of the legacies of pre-2024 5E - a lot of mediocre setting-books that aren't very good as setting books, and no exceptional/wonderful setting-books, at least not in WotC's output. The best of them are really Eberron (which is merely a recapitulation, just a good one), Theros, and arguably Ravnica. Again, there's time to change this, but they'll have to make a serious direction-change to do so. I'll be really interested to see the reaction from non-hyperfans to Spelljammer's approach.
Well, I'm not going to go full-press defending myself here, but there is a chicken and an egg problem here: do I like what WotC puts out because they are making what I like, or do I a priori like things put out by WotC because I am an unreflexive fanboy? I don't characteristically tend to on things I don't like, which is why I just stopped playing D&D entirely when 4E was the thing on offer and Pathfinder just doubled down on what I was tired of in 3E.

Recently, Acquisitions Incorporated, the Stranger Thigns tie in box set, the Rick & Morty box set, miniatures, and anything by Beadle & Grimm really don't float my boat at all, but genuinely I do like pretty much every other 5E product. The worst Adventure they put out, Hoard of the Dragon Queen, and the messiah, Dragon Jeist, both gave me and my folks a lot of enjoyment. SCAG isn’t an all-encompassing 2E style experience...but it has proven useful at the table.
 

Stormonu

Legend
That's fine. I personally love lore and hold 2e's lore as what to shoot for. Do a majority want more? Who knows. Nothing says they do. Do a majority want less? Who knows. Nothing says they do. Do a majority like it best the way it is. Who knows. Nothing says they do.

This discussion should be held without people trying to speak for a majority they know nothing about on this topic. Just speak for yourself(general you).
There was a time that I slavishly devoured and upheld 2E lore. I don't anymore, and would rather create my own. A lot of 5E lore is a miss for me, and I wish they would stop it. But, I guess you got to give the newcomers a springboard to deep dive into their own.
 



Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
5e might mechanically be the best system and it's certainly the most popular (possibly soon to be even more so), but is far from D&D's second golden age.

It simply doesn't approach AD&D depth of lore, heck it doesn't even out do Basic D&D on lore. This isn't an edition war post, mechncally and certain other ways 5e is my favourite edition, but I don't pretend its something its not, a golden age.

Social Media/Pop culture is fueling D&D's popularity. Playtesters pushed WotC in a direction, accidentily, that just dove tailed with streaming and other cultural pheonomana.

Compare to AD&D the lore is extremely shallow, occasionally self contradictory in the sane book, shallow (deserved to be said twice), and often is starved for room because 5e books try to be too many things at once, and so do few to none of them well.

Hell even 4e had deeper dives into settings it did.

It also confusingly mixes generic D&D lore with FR lore sowing confusion. I'm still baffled by much of MToFs lore and parts of VGtM.

3rd parties shouldn't be vastly out doing WotC on quality & support of their settings. I bought the core 5e Southland books from their Kickstarter and it straight up kicks the ass of WotC's best, most well done 5e setting books. Its not alone in doing so. I wish WotC supported it's settings half as well as Kobold press does there's. Honestly the paper quality and the binding quality for Southlands is also vastly superior.

Also they killed most of the novel lines in 5e just as things were getting good. This we do not forgive or forget!





So no it's not a Golden Age, it's system and current popular earn it silver at best.
Yeah, 2e was my golden age for lore, and always will be. That said, I like 5e's rules (with my mods of course) better than 2e's.
 


Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
So then the information doesn't say the contrary.
Really, the fact that 5e is a bigger success than all the previous editions, with it's lore, means that it either doesn't matter, or people like the lore
I think most people don't care about the lore, especially how many people either run homebrew or just swallow whatever FR dribbles WotC tosses out. The rules and the social construct matter more to those who are buying the books, and so they're the one WotC cares about.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I think most people don't care about the lore, especially how many people either run homebrew or just swallow whatever FR dribbles WotC tosses out. The rules and the social construct matter more to those who are buying the books, and so they're the one WotC cares about.
Basically this, yup. Lore is good as long as it doesn't trip up those core game elements of the game, which can happen if canon is taken too far.

WotC current policy of using Lore as a resource to mine rather than a limit to stay within is extremely helpful to the game qua game.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
4E was the golden age of D&D lore. It was the one time in D&D's history when they sat down and refashioned the random hodgepodge of accumulated cruft into a cohesive, well-thought-out, evocative world. And then they threw most of it out with 5E, which was a damn shame.

2E was the golden age of D&D lore output. TSR in its fading years cranked out mountains of the stuff. The gems--and I won't deny there were quite a few--were the result of sheer quantity occasionally lucking into quality. But the average quality of 2E lore was pretty low.
I don't agree with that, but I'm admittedly biased, as 2e has an unassailable place in my heart. 4e did have great lore, it just wasn't mine.
 

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