D&D General Gen Con, Daisy, Sleeping in the Lobby and All That

[Staffan]

Perhaps that's the thing I've been missing in all this: the near immediate and severe consequences. That is yet another unique facet to this incident. And it's good! But also suspicious? Like... would the consequences have been so severe and quickly handled with a Bill Webb-type? Because the contrast between the fallout to those two incidents are night and day.

That may be my own personal hangups. I want to believe that the outcome here is "we have gotten much better, as a hobby and industry, at swiftly and appropriately taking action in the face of such actions" and not "it's a heck of a lot easier to punish this trans woman than a more powerful white male."

It is probably a combination of the perpetrator being a trans woman as opposed to a cis dude, and of the circumstances being much more clear cut.

The reports I could find on Webb and Mentzer are vague. As far as I can tell, Mentzer has been an a-hole online (and possibly in person), but I can't find any reports of him getting physical with anyone. I can't find anything on what Webb supposedly did other than follow the victim around, and getting a PaizoCon staff member injured when they tried to intercede.

Spoiler: CW: Sexual assault

Grant, on the other hand, got into bed with her victim, demanded "cuddles", and pinned her victim to the bed until Grant fell asleep. That's way worse than Mentzer, and likely worse than Webb (given that his deeds were more or less in public, I would be surprised if they got beyond "inappropriate touching"). I'm not trying to excuse Mentzer or Webb here, I'm just saying there are degrees of Bad, and Grant went far beyond what either of them, to the best of my knowledge, did.

 

[SteveC]

This is pretty terrible. As someone who was involved with fandom back in the 70s (when I was way too young) it used to be far more common than it is now. I feel terrible for everyone involved. I don't know what Gen Con could do to make this less likely, but reporting it and making sure the perpetrators are not allowed back is a start.

I know that reporting these things to the police is a controversial action at most, but from my experience it's the only thing that stops it cold. The reason this doesn't happen is because the victims are embarrassed about the situation, but that's also one of the things that keeps it happening.

 

[Gradine]

I know that reporting these things to the police is a controversial action at most, but from my experience it's the only thing that stops it cold. The reason this doesn't happen is because the victims are embarrassed about the situation, but that's also one of the things that keeps it happening.

I would challenge you to re-frame how you consider this statement. The reason has little to nothing to do with "embarrassment" and everything to do with the intense scrutiny that comes from reporting specifically sexual violence. Part of this is sadly understandable, given the way our justice system is organized (in many ways rightly). But there's way more to it:
(1) Sexual violence is inherently traumatic; all violence is, true, but having to relive that trauma time and time again in a judicial situation is extremely hard on its own
(2) There is also the fact that survivors of sexual violence almost always face far more intense scrutiny than survivors of other types of violence. People who are shot or stabbed are not often dragged through the mud repeatedly for having "asked for it".
(3) And that's just the scrutiny faced directly in the criminal justice system; sexual violence survivors also face intense scrutiny, up to and including additional threats of violence, from outside factors, especially via social media and especially when the perpetrator is someone with a great deal of social cache, which is very often the case

Couple all of that intensified scrutiny, shaming, blaming, denigration, and threats with that first point about constant re-traumatization, and you can see that "embarassment" is likely the absolute least of concerns.

 

[SteveC]

would challenge you to re-frame how you consider this statement. The reason has little to nothing to do with "embarrassment" and everything to do with the intense scrutiny that comes from reporting specifically sexual violence. Part of this is sadly understandable, given the way our justice system is organized (in many ways rightly). But there's way more to it:

As someone who has literally had someone in their hotel room after an experience like this, I'll say I chose my words with care. Embarrassment and shame were the issues that they were talking about, and were what others who I've spoken with over the years have used to describe the situation. Not wanting to rock the boat, not wanting to be seen as weak or stupid or many other things is the chief reason that I have seen.

I remember more recently when I was at Gen Con, I invited someone to join our Hero system game to get her out of a situation that was just seeming to go south with people she had met at the con. She just talked about how embarrassed she was to not be able to get out of the situation on her own. This is the way a lot of people who were either the victim or the potential victim acts immediately afterwards.

I have taken training in this matter as part of training to become a teacher, as well as a year as an RA in a dorm environment. Getting past "what did I do wrong?" and "I'm just so embarrassed" are some of the first steps you have to get by. That is soon followed by "what will reporting this say about me."

So yes, there are many different factors at play here. All of them are horrible for the victim. We have to do better as a hobby to address it, and as someone who was there in past decades, we are to a great extent. I'll just say that this sort of thing was much more common in those days and leave it at that.

Gen Con can do better about this and should.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I missed it, but heard from some discussion that seemed to suggest she initially minimized the situation before the victims had a chance to come forward (which was what prompted some to go public when they initially wanted to let GenCon deal with the report before making public statements if at all). The most specific description I saw was Superdillin's, where they call out comments saying it was 'brushing this off as "drunken cheek kisses" '. By the time it came on my radar Daisy had apparently deleted her initial comments and posted a tweet that if I remember right was a kind of non-specific apology and mentioned plans to seek out counseling. She's now deleted her twitter profile, and as far as I've seen not made any other public statements.

I wish Daisy the best at getting counselling.

Long term is there no room for a redemption arc for Daisy? Does the black balling have an end date at which point Daisy gets a second chance, or is Daisy doomed to an eternity in exile from the community?

i say this not as a defence, but rather I'm a firm believer in the power forgiveness is all. All punishments should be finite and proportionate to the offence, not eternal, because that is no longer justice at that point.

 

[Steampunkette]

I wish Daisy the best at getting counselling.

Long term is there no room for a redemption arc for Daisy? Does the black balling have an end date at which point Daisy gets a second chance, or is Daisy doomed to an eternity in exile from the community?

i say this not as a defence, but rather I'm a firm believer in the power forgiveness is all. All punishments should be finite and proportionate to the offence, not eternal, because that is no longer justice at that point.

I mean she'll probably never -work- in the community, again, no. Even with therapy and improvement.

But after a time she'll certainly be back at tables and stuff. Gencon, too, unless they ban her. She'll just be another player rather than someone in a position of power is all.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

I mean she'll probably never -work- in the community, again, no. Even with therapy and improvement.

But after a time she'll certainly be back at tables and stuff. Gencon, too, unless they ban her. She'll just be another player rather than someone in a position of power is all.

I guess that's something.

 

[MGibster]

When I travel for business, I have my own room no matter if my coworkers are men or women. I realize there's no employee/employer relationship here, but if a business is going to provide a room in exchange for some service at a con it may behoove them to consider private rooms as it mitigates the risk of this kind of incident occurring. If this makes such arrangements too costly, well, don't make those kinds of arrangements then.

 

[Ralif Redhammer]

Yeah, the Bill Webb incident seems the most comparable event in recent years and the fallout been very different. I would like to think that a lot has changed in five years and that Bill Webb would see immediate consequences if it happened today. But the cynical part of me suspects that it would still look about the same. Privilege still counts for a whole lot, unfortunately.

Perhaps that's the thing I've been missing in all this: the near immediate and severe consequences. That is yet another unique facet to this incident. And it's good! But also suspicious? Like... would the consequences have been so severe and quickly handled with a Bill Webb-type? Because the contrast between the fallout to those two incidents are night and day.

That may be my own personal hangups. I want to believe that the outcome here is "we have gotten much better, as a hobby and industry, at swiftly and appropriately taking action in the face of such actions" and not "it's a heck of a lot easier to punish this trans woman than a more powerful white male."

I hate to be cynical, always, but the spreading influence and power of transphobes, particularly in the US and UK, have sapped me of a lot of my hope for equity in short-term on this issue.

 

[SteveC]

When I travel for business, I have my own room no matter if my coworkers are men or women. I realize there's no employee/employer relationship here, but if a business is going to provide a room in exchange for some service at a con it may behoove them to consider private rooms as it mitigates the risk of this kind of incident occurring. If this makes such arrangements too costly, well, don't make those kinds of arrangements then.

This is by far the best way, but I can tell you from experience that this is too expensive for most cons. When I was volunteering in my youth, we would cram as many people into a hotel room as allowed. And then add some more for good measure.

I know this would be the safest way to go, but I'd say it is cost prohibitive for most cons.