D&D 5E Being strong and skilled is a magic of its own or, how I learned to stop worrying and love anime fightin' magic

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

It's not even close. Swimming the English Channel isn't even remotely has difficult or impressive as taking on orcus solo and turning him into a baseball bat. A few hundred people make that swim every year these days.

Out of billions of people on Earth. If I recall correctly, Toril and most other "generic fantasy worlds" have much smaller populations.

The D&D equivalent would at best be something that a few hundred people from one particular setting could do annually. Even the Forgotten Realms, the setting most heavily dripping with powerful people, could probably only field 3 or 4 capable of that, and maybe 0. I'm not sure that even Elminster or the Simbul could do it solo, and they are the most powerful.

You're taking the metaphor too seriously. Perhaps "D&D characters are the fantasy equivalent of Gold Medalist Olympians" would be more accurate? The point was that D&D Martials should be the physical peak of a magical world's humanoid population. And fantasy worlds allow for more unrealistic athletic capabilities than the real world does.

 

[MGibster]

Getting the D&D community to agree on whether or not D&D is gonzo high fantasy or gritty low fantasy is like getting a thousand cats to do the same thing.

While I'm not a fan of super heroic action for D&D, I would never in a million years describe it as a gritty low fantasy game. It certainly leans on the heroic side of the equation and I wouldn't want it any other way. Though it can certainly go too far for me.

Even the hee haw remix of word up?

The Hee Haw remix of Word Up can stay.

And it still begs the question: why is it okay to be a fun, interesting cartoon if you wear a point hat and hand jive, but not when you're punching people?

I prefer to have some things grounded in something closer to "realism" in my fantastical settings because it makes the fantastic more so. If everything is just high fantasy it just saps the magic out of it for me.

How does a human with no magical enhancements and no magical spells stand up to an archfiend?

How do they stand up against a dragon or a giant for that matter? I don't really care. I just don't care for DBZ Fighters or Rogues. It's just a matter of preference. Though it might be fun to have two game sessions where all the PCs stare at the NPCs grimacing and going "Aaaaaggggghhhhh!" as they power up.

 

[Cadence]

You're taking the metaphor too seriously. Perhaps "D&D characters are the fantasy equivalent of Gold Medalist Olympians" would be more accurate? The point was that D&D Martials should be the physical peak of a magical world's humanoid population. And fantasy worlds allow for more unrealistic athletic capabilities than the real world does.

It feels like the question that keeps coming up is whether that peak Captain America or Black Panther? Spider-Man? Hulk? Thor?

Whatever the peak is, what motivational fiction do power levels enable, and what motivational fiction does it depreciate? (Hard to be a great Fafhrd and Mouser or Conan type martial hero if Hulk, Thor, or Captain Marvel is the martial they're comparing you to. Hard to be a great Fafhrd and Mouser or Conan type martial hero in general if Dr. Strange is in your party).

 

[Haplo781]

It feels like the question that keeps coming up is whether that peak Captain America or Black Panther? Spider-Man? Hulk? Thor?

Whatever the peak is, what motivational fiction do power levels enable, and what motivational fiction does it depreciate? (Hard to be a great Fafhrd and Mouser or Conan type martial hero if Hulk, Thor, or Captain Marvel is the martial they're comparing you to. Hard to be a great Fafhrd and Mouser or Conan type martial hero in general if Dr. Strange is in your party).

Fafhrd and Conan were low tier 2 at best.

High level characters should be more impressive than that.

 

[Maxperson]

Out of billions of people on Earth. If I recall correctly, Toril and most other "generic fantasy worlds" have much smaller populations.

You're taking the metaphor too seriously. Perhaps "D&D characters are the fantasy equivalent of Gold Medalist Olympians" would be more accurate? The point was that D&D Martials should be the physical peak of a magical world's humanoid population. And fantasy worlds allow for more unrealistic athletic capabilities than the real world does.

Not really. D&D characters are more the equivalent to the heroes of ancient Greece, Sinbad, and the like. No real world human comes close to any PC beyond low levels.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

It feels like the question that keeps coming up is whether that peak Captain America or Black Panther? Spider-Man? Hulk? Thor?

Same power level Spellcasters achieve at the same level. That's what the peak is. It's really that simple. If a Spellcaster can do things as impressive as summon meteorites to destroy whole armies in 6 seconds, Martial characters need to be able to do things that are just as impressive at the same level.

People that don't like martial characters having that level of power can play at the levels before that happens. People that want their spellcasters to feel super special at the expense of the fun of martial characters are problem players that are making the hobby worse.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

Not really. D&D characters are more the equivalent to the heroes of ancient Greece, Sinbad, and the like. No real world human comes close to any PC beyond low levels.

Because D&D worlds allow for greater feats than are accomplishable in the real world.

 

[Cadence]

Fafhrd and Conan were low tier 2 at best.

High level characters should be more impressive than that.

And so, like I said: "Whatever the peak is, what motivational fiction do power levels enable, and what motivational fiction does it depreciate?"

By what you say, the current game apparently depreciates Fafhrd and Mouser and Conan being much of anything in the grand scheme of heroic things. Which is fine if that's what it is. (And hence my liking the two editions of the game idea, even if it will never happen.)

Would be interesting to see what's left in the inspirational reading list if it's down to series that are at least set in a world that has all 4 tiers as a thing the great heroes do.

 

[Cadence]

Same power level Spellcasters achieve at the same level. That's what the peak is. It's really that simple. If a Spellcaster can do things as impressive as summon meteorites to destroy whole armies in 6 seconds, Martial characters need to be able to do things that are just as impressive at the same level.

And the spell casters need to have cantrips and defenses every round that are as impressive as what the martials at the same level have?

People that don't like martial characters having that level of power can play at the levels before that happens. People that want their spellcasters to feel super special at the expense of the fun of martial characters are problem players that are making the hobby worse.

Second sentence is harsher than I would have phrased it, but sure. Is a lot of it also folks who don't want their martials to have to develop into Hulk or Thor either (and don't have control over what the casters do)?

 

[Minigiant]

How do they stand up against a dragon or a giant for that matter? I don't really care. I just don't care for DBZ Fighters or Rogues. It's just a matter of preference. Though it might be fun to have two game sessions where all the PCs stare at the NPCs grimacing and going "Aaaaaggggghhhhh!" as they power up.

There's more to anime than DBZ.
DBZ to me is post level 30 to me.
Regular Dragon Ball, FotNS, Demon Slayer, and Naruto (Chunin and down) is well within the level 1-20 parameters.
Jackie Chan level 10 monk. Jackie Chun Level 20 monk.