D&D 5E Making Challenging Combats?

[Ralif Redhammer]

Agreed, large numbers of foes really tell against PCs. If you're getting 2-4 rolls against each PC, those numbers are going to start adding up.

Absolutlely At least equal their numbers but I tend to make it more than the PCs (sometimes twice as many but not usually) because it forces the PCs to make choices about who to protect and how, or whether to use AoEs that might catch allies, etc...

Another big trick to challenging the party is making sure they're not fully rested going into a fight that you want to be really tough. This is a balancing act, though - do this too much and you're looking at TPK, not enough and it doesn't make an impact. I generally go with a low-to-medium range difficulty. Sometimes it's enough to just have them take a few points of damage, use up a few abilities and spell slots.

And if I'm wrong and the group took too much of a beating on that encounter, I can generally alter my adventure so that they can get a short rest in at the least, before I throw the big fight at them. And if it's a case of one or two PCs blowing all their spell slots on a band of skeletons, I'll probably just let it ride and throw that mummy at them right away like I planned.

 

[Oofta]

I ignore the numbers multiplier and regularly use hard and deadly encounters. I generally only use medium encounters when I know we're going to have 5 or more encounters before a Ling rest.

However, it's really variable, some groups are simply more effective than others.

So general advice? Don't have enemies come at the group in fireball formation. Take advantage of terrain and features if the enemy is in home terrain. Consider adding +2 to +4 ro attacks (instead of adding HP). Sometimes I do max out HP for bosses. Have enemies come from multiple directions and in waves. Don't be afraid to use monsters with CR 2-3 levels above the party's level.

I also customize monsters. Several, especially ones from the MM, fight below their CR.

But really it's just a matter of increasing XP budget for the day until you get the challenge level that work. The guidelines in the DMG are just a starting point.

 

[dave2008]

Coming back to 5e after some time in other systems (WFRP, OSE, PF2), it's hitting me that I'm having some trouble building challenging fights. I have five 6th-level characters (paladin, ranger, cleric, wizard, and monk), and they are easily handling battles that are considered "Deadly" by the encounter building guidelines (12th and 13th level fights).
Is there a rule of thumb that you use to present a decent challenge for a standard fight? I'm certainly not looking to TPK the party, but just enough where they have to use some tactics and sweat a little during a battle instead of the group being basically unscathed with most of their resources remaining.
And yeah, I know I can add complications to the fights (monsters who can't be grappled, battles underwater, combats that require navigating creative obstacles and traps), but this design would be exhausting for me to prepare for every fight and would likely get frustrating for the group.
What do you do? Like, do you stage 16th level challenges for such a party?

First, I am going to stress what Quickleaf says below. If you read the description of "deadly" in the DMG, it is not really a challenge for a single encounter. Per the daily XP budget you should be able to survive* 3 "deadly" encounters per adventuring day. If you are going to mix encounters that are less challenging, then you need even more encounters. If you want less encounters, then you need to make them more dangerous (larger XP budget).

If you go through some minor encounters and no one has really used daily resources, then you need to essentially assume they don't count towards the daily XP budget.

Now, if I want to challenge a group, I would go at least 50-100% of the daily XP budget in one encounter. I wrote post about this: It's not Deadly, its Epic! (based on post by DM Dave linked in my post)

*I want to further stress that the DMG assumes a party will survive the daily XP budget. That is the amount a group should be able to handle (without any magic items I might add). So technically to really challenge them (chance of not surviving) you need to go even further. Maybe 125% of daily budget: 4 deadly encounters, or 2 epic encounters, or some combination thereof per adventure day.

PS - Per the epic encounter guidelines, your party should have a good fight with a CR 18 monster.

First, "deadly" does not mean what you think it means, especially if the party is not having 6-8 encounters per adventuring day (IME most of us don't have that many). Don't be afraid to use Daily Adventuring XP Budget as a guideline or even just your "DM feels." I've routinely seen PCs hit above what the rules would have you believe is their "weight class", such as four 10th levels taking on a CR 16 star spawn larva mage with Lair Actions and a magic item. And I saw that same 10th level party – after being severely taxed – flee a goblin ambush.

 

[R_J_K75]

TPK is always the answer

 

[Retreater]

I did a test fight between 4 party members (the usual group minus the paladin - who is essentially an NPC left over from a guy who quit the group a couple years ago). I ran them against 6 CR4 helmed horrors. The fight was tough (close to a PF2 "severe"), and most resources were expended - though no deaths or even unconsciousness. According to the DMG, that's a 15th level fight, but within the realm of "deadly" category for their level not considering the multiplier for a number of enemies.

 

[Blue]

Coming back to 5e after some time in other systems (WFRP, OSE, PF2), it's hitting me that I'm having some trouble building challenging fights. I have five 6th-level characters (paladin, ranger, cleric, wizard, and monk), and they are easily handling battles that are considered "Deadly" by the encounter building guidelines (12th and 13th level fights).

The encounter building rules are expecting a large number of encounters per day. D&D is very much a resource attrition game along those lines. It's fairly trivial to deal with a single deadly encounter when you blow through several encounters worth of resources to do so. Do six of them, with two short rests in there. You'll find it is a different story.

Think like this, if I say "My fighter hit with an attack", we have no idea who won the battle. Same with a single encounter - working through one is the same fraction as a single attack in a combat. This isn't much of an exaggeration - with many combats lasting 3-4 rounds, that's 6-8 attacks for most weapon-wielders, and that also a good spot for the encounters per day once you reach Tier 2.

So there is no rule of thumb for a single fight, because as a DM you should never be planning a single fight. The system math isn't balanced around that. (I can go on a long bit about balance between at-will and per-day classes and rounds of combat per day but hopefully that's out of scope.)

 

[CleverNickName]

Use the environment as well. I've used all of the following to good effect:

• Dense fog or smoke that gives everyone Disadvantage on attack rolls.
• Thick mud that creates a slip hazard and slows everyone's movement by half.
• A nearby cliff that the characters would be wise to avoid--or lure their opponent toward
• A roaring bonfire, excellent for monsters and players who love to shove.
• A nearby hornet nest that neither the characters nor the monsters are friends with.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

My rule of thumb is to count up the total number of attacks or other actions, bonus actions, legendary actions, etc. and make sure the two sides have a rough parity. If a group above 4th level or so are fighting a solo monster and (it is meant to be a challenging encounter) it should have both legendary actions, to give that rough action economy parity, and legendary resistances, so that they can't be disabled for a round or two.

Also, have challenging encounters in larger spaces with opportunities to use cover and range, multiple levels, barriers, traps, etc.. This can make things less about who has the intrinsic action economy advantage and more about who is better at keeping their actions from being frustrated by the environment. It makes for more dynamic battles in any case.

 

[Shiroiken]

In my first campaign I never looked at the challenge guildines when designing, but then checked afterwards because I was curious. I was regularly throwing twice to triple the deadly value against the party, and they often defeated them with ease. The encounter that actually killed 2 PCs was only a medium to hard challenge, but a simple trick threw the party completely off (they wasted their best spells against an illusion). I decided these were pretty worthless and never even bothered checking again. I later found the challenge guide in Xathnars to be quite useful, although I usually up the level to make it harder.

Remember that 5E is largely about resource depletion, so to challenge a party of strategic players, you have to use a lot of encounters in a day to wear them down. This runs counter to the way most groups play, which is only a few more challenging encounters, in which case you've got to throw the kitchen sink at them.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Alternatively, you could weaken your PCs. If you reduce all their stats by four, combat will become much more challenging.