D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Cadence]

And there's textual evidence either way: it's stronger than a warhorse, and yet (nearly) every martial PC gets it early in their career.

I would love for the beast and animal stars to make any sense at all!

 

[Bill Zebub]

I would love for the beast and animal stars to make any sense at all!

The only way to make any sense of the rules at all is to treat ability scores as highly abstract.

 

[Reynard]

I don't think that it's a bad idea to have mystical warriors with strange powers either. But if you have mystical warriors in a movie with Paul Blart Mall Cop, you have a comedy, not a heroic fantasy. Now, D&D isn't so bad that fighters are actually Paul Blart, but it trends in that direction. That's the issue. A high level fighter adventuring alongside mystical warriors should be 100% Beowulf and 0% Paul Blart, and that's really entirely the case. I'd gauge the actual game at something more like 67% Beowulf/ 33% Blart.

I can see that. What features would you add to Beowulf-up the top tier fighter levels?

 

[Maxperson]

Absolutely not. They used the word "longswords" because she has more than one longsword. To use the phrase, "Multiattack. The marilith can make seven attacks: six with its longsword and one with its tail" would be factually incorrect, because she does not have one longsword, she has six.

Correct. They would not have written, "Multiattack. The marilith can make seven attacks: six with its longsword and one with its tail" If they intended what you say to be true they would have written, "Multiattack. The marilith can make seven attacks: six with a longsword and one with its tail" That leaves open 6 with one sword or 1 each with 6 swords.

You can run it however you like, but it's crystal clear that RAW and RAI intend for each arm and the tail to attack once.

 

[Maxperson]

To harken back to @Maxperson example of 6-8 combat encounters per day, suppose you have a party that is made up of a fighter, cleric, wizard and valor bard. They run through 6-8 combats encounters before resting. The wizard uses Web, Banishment and Fireball to trivialize three of them. The Valor Bard trivializes another two with Eyebite and Hypnotic Pattern. The Trickery Cleric trivializes another encounter with Polymorph. The last two encounters are bypassed by the Wizard and the Bard each casting Dimension Door. The fighter ends the day having contributed very little, and all three casters still have a large number of spells left over.

And then the party wakes up from the dream they all had where everything misses all of their saves and prepare for their adventuring day.

 

[Fanaelialae]

I can see that. What features would you add to Beowulf-up the top tier fighter levels?

I'd improve their utility in and out of combat.

Some example ideas:

Faster movement - why the heck would Caramon move at the same speed as Raistlin!?

Improved Range - sure, maybe Pete the town guard and Cleo the cleric can only accurately hurl a javelin 30', but Conan should probably be able to manage significantly more

Literal Disarm - yeah, I'd really love to see a fighter that can rip a monster's arm off (or at least break it)

More abilities that allow the fighter to control the field around them. The fighter is the best at fighting? Well then it should feel to most enemies engaged with the fighter that they're always on the back foot.

More skills, and better (exclusive) things that key off of skills. I've seen real world people who climb with the same agility as monkeys. Why can't a fighter learn to do that? There are people who have an innate knack for setting other's at ease. How about a Disarmingly Charming feature that improves the reaction of non-hostile creatures by one step? I realize that this is treading on the roles of other classes, but in fairness those same classes regularly tread over the fighter's thing (fighting) and very few people seem to take issue with that.

Would I like to see mythical abilities (as opposed to mystical) that go beyond that, particularly in T3 & T4? Yeah, but this something this would be a good starting point.

 

[James Gasik]

Well I guess our would-be Marilith better fabricate a few longswords, then.

 

[Reynard]

I'd improve their utility in and out of combat.

Some example ideas:

Faster movement - why the heck would Caramon move at the same speed as Raistlin!?

What?

Improved Range - sure, maybe Pete the town guard and Cleo the cleric can only accurately hurl a javelin 30', but Conan should probably be able to manage significantly more

This is a good idea.

Literal Disarm - yeah, I'd really love to see a fighter that can rip a monster's arm off (or at least break it)

What in game effect would this have?

More abilities that allow the fighter to control the field around them. The fighter is the best at fighting? Well then it should feel to most enemies engaged with the fighter that they're always on the back foot.

There are tons of feats that do this exact thing.

More skills, and better (exclusive) things that key off of skills. I've seen real world people who climb with the same agility as monkeys. Why can't a fighter learn to do that? There are people who have an innate knack for setting other's at ease. How about a Disarmingly Charming feature that improves the reaction of non-hostile creatures by one step? I realize that this is treading on the roles of other classes, but in fairness those same classes regularly tread over the fighter's thing (fighting) and very few people seem to take issue with that.

Can't you spend a feat to get more skills? Or are you talking about expertise or something?

Would I like to see mythical abilities (as opposed to mystical) that go beyond that, particularly in T3 & T4? Yeah, but this something like this would be a good starting point.

I feel like you are ignoring the main component of the fighter's versatility: feats.

 

[Maxperson]

Edit. And this also misses the point. The first post asked Maxperson to give an example of something a fighter could do that a wizard couldn’t. He responded at 20th level, attack 8 times on two consecutive turns….EXCEPT that is something wizards can do, by using the True Polymorph spell. The converse however, deliver messages over a long distance quickly, is something fighters just simply can’t do. At all.

Okay, fine. Wizards can get lots of fist attacks as a Maralith. They aren't go to be nearly as effective as a fighter as they are not going to have six weapons ready to use. It's pretty clear that I was talking about single target damage, which true polymoph into the Maralith fails to achieve.

 

[Fanaelialae]

What?

This is a good idea.

What in game effect would this have?

There are tons of feats that do this exact thing.

Can't you spend a feat to get more skills? Or are you talking about expertise or something?

I feel like you are ignoring the main component of the fighter's versatility: feats.

Feats are a big investment, even for a fighter who gets more than average. They're also heavily pressured to build in certain "optimal" ways. Sure, you could take the Skilled feat instead of increasing your Strength/Dexterity, or taking something like Crossbow Expert or Sharpshooter. And you'd end up with a fighter whose mediocre in three more skills but significantly worse in combat than the paladin who took GWM.

Moreover, unlike most other class features, feats are optional. And yes, I have seen games where the DM does not allow feats.

Fast movement. Not sure why this is confusing to you? The athletic fighter gets a boost to their movement speed so that they are faster than the asthmatic wizard.

No, spending a feat for 3 more skills is exactly what I don't mean! Exclusive uses for skills. Things that the fighter can do that nobody else can do. I even gave examples.

I can only think of one feat that gives the fighter significant battlefield control: Sentinel. I'll grant you, that's a great feat. But, again, feats are optional. Moreover, these should be exclusive. "Letting" fighters take a feat to have decent field control is like creating a feat to allow anyone to cast 9th level wizard spells. Pretty sure that wizard players might have something to say if anyone could gain a "defining" feature of their class for the cost of a single ASI.