D&D (2024) 1D&D elf: Swing and a miss

[jasper]

I think there should be two elfs. Dark Elf with 60 darkvision. All other elfs with no darkvison. Currently there are 8 different elfs.

 

[Marandahir]

I still don't see the need for separate High Elf and Eladrin, other than the fact that they've relegated Eladrin to MP:MotM.

If you have to have High Elves, don't give them misty step. That's too much overlap with Eladrin's teleporting step.

But yeah, I'd agree, High vs Wood are cultural, and Drow is separate (and the three FR cultures of Drow, plus other settings' cultures should be discussed as examples).

Notice how Aereni and Tarenal and Great House elves don't care whether they're Wood or High, in Eberron?

Also, don't forget that there are Pallid Elves courtesy of Critical Role. If Astral Elves are starry-eyed, Pallid Elves are over the moon. But also… Pallid elves could just be another culture of elf, rather than the very unique features of Sea Elves, Eladrin, Shadar-kai, and Drow…

In 2014 PHB, Sun and Moon and Grey elves are all considered cultures of High elves, while Wild and Green elves are variants of Wood elves. Back in earlier editions, there were also Dusk elves - a culture of Wood elf that were actually Drow that regretted their actions and didn't leave entirely and regained some wood elviness, or else maybe they were associated with Ravenloft, in some editions. I'd imagine they'd be considered a culture of Drow now.

And then there are Avariel (winged elves), Lythari (elf-wolves), and Gruagach which may just be Wild elves but might be something different if you're in Greyhawk, and there's desert elves in Dark Sun who are all thieves because racism…

 

[Horwath]

Elf:

traits:
Elven immunities(sleep, charm resistance, etc...)

darkvision 60ft

move speed 35ft

keen senses: proficiency + expertise in perception

trance: complete long rest in 4 hrs, pick 2 proficiencies after every trance out of languages, tools or weapons

cantrip: know one cantrip, you can exchange it after every long rest. Or you can gain proficiency in one skill instead of cantrip(not all want magic)

 

[Micah Sweet]

Although I agree with you about boosting the trance ability, I would go the opposite direction on the lineages generally: Merge high elves and wood elves. Those are cultural distinctions. Make all PHB elves skilled at moving in their natural environment and have them all be naturally skilled at their particular flavor of magic, whether that's primordial, divine or arcane.

Once upon a time, AD&D has grey, high, wood, sea and valley elves, along with the "oh, these are mythical, they don't exist, ho ho, why are we even mentioning them in the Monster Manual" drow. I don't think anyone's missed the grey or or valley elves in a very long time. I don't know that we shouldn't just toss "wood" and "high" elves as more different than humans who live in the country or city into the dustbin of history.

That said, if astral elves are a distinct people with their own write-up, it seems silly to suggest drow and shadar-kai are not. I would be fine with having "elves," "drow" and "shadar-kai" as three distinct peoples with their own write-ups in the 2024 PHB.

Unfortunately, WotC D&D (both 5e and the upcoming 6e) lacks a culture axis to character creation, requiring WotC to jump through hoops to give races the things they need, or just bland-ify what they produce. This is why Level Up's origin system is so much better that it's worth a little more complexity.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I think I would be fine with most of the elves being all one thing, but I do think* that (excluding a third 'other' category which might actually be the majority) there are at least two popular conceptions of elves -- one that is very nature/bow/sword/'where are the orcs/goblins?'-ish, and another that is very 'may live in treetops or crystal grottos, but are mostly about the powerful magic'-ish. I can see myself being behind splitting them out by type, or having that be a cultural difference (and hopefully an implementation that lets both concepts flourish).
*and this is all a very '77-99 mindset, I think people who came in in 3e probably thought elves were all things to all people and I don't know what things have solidified to at this point.

 

[Remathilis]

I still don't see the need for separate High Elf and Eladrin, other than the fact that they've relegated Eladrin to MP:MotM.

If you have to have High Elves, don't give them misty step. That's too much overlap with Eladrin's teleporting step.

But yeah, I'd agree, High vs Wood are cultural, and Drow is separate (and the three FR cultures of Drow, plus other settings' cultures should be discussed as examples).

Notice how Aereni and Tarenal and Great House elves don't care whether they're Wood or High, in Eberron?

Also, don't forget that there are Pallid Elves courtesy of Critical Role. If Astral Elves are starry-eyed, Pallid Elves are over the moon. But also… Pallid elves could just be another culture of elf, rather than the very unique features of Sea Elves, Eladrin, Shadar-kai, and Drow…

In 2014 PHB, Sun and Moon and Grey elves are all considered cultures of High elves, while Wild and Green elves are variants of Wood elves. Back in earlier editions, there were also Dusk elves - a culture of Wood elf that were actually Drow that regretted their actions and didn't leave entirely and regained some wood elviness, or else maybe they were associated with Ravenloft, in some editions. I'd imagine they'd be considered a culture of Drow now.

And then there are Avariel (winged elves), Lythari (elf-wolves), and Gruagach which may just be Wild elves but might be something different if you're in Greyhawk, and there's desert elves in Dark Sun who are all thieves because racism…

Part of me still wants the high/wood elf split, maybe because I altmer/bosmer of Elder Scrolls being different physically, not just culturally and want to see something like that in D&D. Which is actually my problem: the three elven lineages in the playtest are too alike, especially compared to the 4 other elf races. The difference is a minor racial ability (swap cantrip, +5 ft of move, or double darkvision) and which spells you get. It feels very phoned in: they decided to give them all Drow SLAs rather than think of something unique to each race.

I guess if they can't think of anything to separate wood and high elves, combine them into a single elf with lineages, but make their racial traits not "drow magic, but generic arcane/woodsy spells" and leave the SLAs unique to the drow.

Or if this is the standard, redo the sea, astral, eladrin and shadar kai to also just be a ribbon + cantrip, first and second level free spell. Commit to a design principle.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Unfortunately, WotC D&D (both 5e and the upcoming 6e) lacks a culture axis to character creation, requiring WotC to jump through hoops to give races the things they need, or just bland-ify what they produce.

Differentiating wood and high elves would be an ideal use of custom backgrounds, actually. (And rock and forest gnomes too, for that matter.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Or if this is the standard, redo the sea, astral, eladrin and shadar kai to also just be a ribbon + cantrip, first and second level free spell. Commit to a design principle.

Yeah, that's one of my issues, too. Either every elf has the same chassis, with adaptations for their environments, or every elf is a different unique butterfly (which is I'm sure what the elves would tell you is true). The fact that they're publishing incrementally means we get stuck with different stages of design philosophy. It'd be nice if we don't have to have a new version of eladrin again some time after 2023, but I suspect we will.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I still don't see the need for separate High Elf and Eladrin, other than the fact that they've relegated Eladrin to MP:MotM.

I think there's an argument for making a planar elf core race, with eladrin, shadar-kai, astral elves and potentially more as lineages of that.

Then maybe you have an "extreme environments" elf, which fits with 5E lore, and that gives you drow, sea elves and potentially more. These are all probably too different to make as lineages.

And then you have the PHB elf, which currently has lineages for wood and high elves, but which could probably also be accomplished with backgrounds. Make them all adept at Stealth in natural environments and give them access to two cantrips and a first level spell from either the arcane or primal lists and call it a day.

 

[Marandahir]

Yeah, that's one of my issues, too. Either every elf has the same chassis, with adaptations for their environments, or every elf is a different unique butterfly (which is I'm sure what the elves would tell you is true). The fact that they're publishing incrementally means we get stuck with different stages of design philosophy. It'd be nice if we don't have to have a new version of eladrin again some time after 2023, but I suspect we will.

Agreed. I'm afraid I'm going to be eating my own fist and buying ANOTHER special box set of the Rules Expansion in 2025, only now with errata that updates it to align with the 2024 Rulebooks. Wouldn't be surprised if there was a Rules Expansion 2 as well, compiling Fizban's, Bigby's, and the Book of Many Things…