D&D 5E Are Wizards really all that?

[Scott Christian]

But even with all the changes wizards are only overpowered when the DM gives the players too much information. If the wizard has a good spellbook and knows what they have to deal with they can at medium to high levels be overpowered. If you want to run a low level magic game, they are overpowered, (and you are running the wrong system). If you simply control the information and don't let them know what's comeing every encounter they become useless far more often than most DM's realize. I love to play wizards. I've played entire 8 hour sessions where I had the wrong spells memorized to be effective. A wizard that knows Assasins are comeing and what day will be nearly unkillable. Wizards that know they are coming but don't know who what or how, can be forced to memorize spells to plan for everything and become far less effective because they can't plan for a certain encounter.

I am sorry, but information is irrelevant. Yes, there can be argues individual scenarios, but we are talking is "the wizard all that?" And the answer is yes.

 

[Mort]

But even with all the changes wizards are only overpowered when the DM gives the players too much information. If the wizard has a good spellbook and knows what they have to deal with they can at medium to high levels be overpowered. If you want to run a low level magic game, they are overpowered, (and you are running the wrong system). If you simply control the information and don't let them know what's comeing every encounter they become useless far more often than most DM's realize. I love to play wizards. I've played entire 8 hour sessions where I had the wrong spells memorized to be effective. A wizard that knows Assasins are comeing and what day will be nearly unkillable. Wizards that know they are coming but don't know who what or how, can be forced to memorize spells to plan for everything and become far less effective because they can't plan for a certain encounter.

1. This assumes the wizard isn't being proactive. The wizard can send his familiar to scout. The wizard can cast arcane eye to recon the area. The wizard can take precautions like contingency. Sure the DM can foil any and all of these if they want. But at a certain point, they just come off as as jerk DM specifically foiling the wizard.

2. Wizards get enough spells that they can plan for different situations. Just because they don't know EXACTLY what's coming doesn't mean they can't plan for a good number of scenarios.

3. Plenty of wizard spells, and not even high level ones, work great in multiple situations. Suggestion is a great spell in social interaction, but can be decent in combat too. Misty step and dimension door have both mobility and escape uses (and so do spells like fly and levitate). And, of course, illusions have huge utility across multiple pillars of play.

The large versatility makes it tough to catch an experienced wizard player flat footed.

 

[Undrave]

And there are 2 things to counter this, first differences will not make a newbie playing a wizard more powerful and second there is the "fluff".

I mean a newbie has not played the game and does not understand the mechanics, so barring someone helping him how is he going to make his choice ..... and if somoene does help him, that person should explain the power deficiencies if he things they are relevant.

If a group of newbies pick up DnD after hearing about it, how are they suppose to know the Wizard is more powerful? It's not directly spelled out. Not is it spelled out that, according to you, the Rogue is the second weakest class? It doesn't spell it out because it's simply not an actual design goal.

 

[ECMO3]

If we discuss balance, I personally think 1e did something no other edition has - it had balance, but that balance came at different stages in the game. The fighter was stronger and could survive early levels much better than the wizard, which as we all know, could die from a cat scratch. But later, the wizard became much more powerful. And in the middle, they were equal.
It is an interesting design. Maybe not the best for today's audience, but it is interesting.

I would disagree with this.

In 1E in the mid to late 80s (post unearthed Arcana) the Fighter (to include Cavaliers, Rangers and Paladins) was the strongest at all levels. Yes the Wizard had some powerful abilities, but those that did not get a save (like power word kill) did not work on equivalent level fighters (too many hit points) and those that did get a save he only needed a 3 or a 6 to save (before magic rings and stuff that made it even lower). Also casting spells in combat was very difficult to do and the Wizard would usually lose his spell.

Spells were not flexible, you prepared specific spells and there were no slots. If you memorized levitate and you never had a chance/need to levitate that is one less second level spell you got to cast that day. As a result, usually you only used about half your spells in a day and often one or two of them were wasted because you got hit while casting. There were also dead levels where you had no great spells and memorizing a lower level spell was not an option.

Fighters got higher strength and constitution bonuses and Paladins and Cavaliers abilities increased every level (no other class got this in 1E).

At high levels many enemies had magic resistance, meaning you had to beat the magic resistance before they even had to roll a save. Meanwhile, at 20th level a fighter could take down a lessor Gods in a round or two by himself. We played the D-2 Descent onto the depths and our fighter killed Lolth in the boss fight in one round. Meanwhile our 11th level Wizard had literally half his spells just plain fail to affect the normal everyday Drow in the city and underdark because of their magic resistance. He did not even try against Lolth and if I remember correctly she had nearly 100% resistance to his spells and if he beat that insanely high magic resistance she still had great saves.

Finally at high levels a Wizard requires more experience than a fighter and a Wizard can be up to a full level behind.

 

[ECMO3]

1. This assumes the wizard isn't being proactive. The wizard can send his familiar to scout.

My familiar gets killed every single time I do this in doors, usually alerting the enemy at the same time. Outdoors it is a bit better.

If a DM does not kill your familiar in such a situation he is a being a Santa Clause.

I agree with the rest of what you said.

 

[Garthanos]

3. Plenty of wizard spells, and not even high level ones, work great in multiple situations. Suggestion is a great spell in social interaction, but can be decent in combat too. Misty step and dimension door have both mobility and escape uses (and so do spells like fly and levitate). And, of course, illusions have huge utility across multiple pillars of play.

When I talk about adjusting maneuvers so they are more versatile (even just in combat versatile), I am afraid they are still going to be less versatile even with my adjustments than much of the above. Non-casters are reliant on skills when we step out of combat and 5e skills do not have the sense of empowerment that 4e's had. The ability to plausibly do stunts even is limited by the mundanity of attributes we see in the 5e characters, in other words because they stall out at 20.

 

[Fanaelialae]

My familiar gets killed every single time I do this in doors, usually alerting the enemy at the same time. Outdoors it is a bit better.

If a DM does not kill your familiar in such a situation he is a being a Santa Clause.

I agree with the rest of what you said.

If your familiar is getting killed every single time you do this then either you are being completely reckless with that familiar, or the DM is going out of his way to shut down one of your class features (bad DMing practices). I mean, sometimes the familiar's stealth check has got to be higher than the enemies' perception, right? Or does your familiar not even attempt stealth? (In which case maybe try doing that next time.)

Does the rogue similarly land themselves in life threatening situations every time they go to scout ahead? I can understand the familiar dying sometimes, but the fact that you say it happens every time makes me suspect that there's something else at play here. On the up side, it only takes 10 minutes and 10 GP to replace a dead familiar, which is generally a significantly lower cost, compared to replacing a dead rogue.

 

[DND_Reborn]

My familiar gets killed every single time I do this in doors, usually alerting the enemy at the same time. Outdoors it is a bit better.

Depending on what your familiar is it should be rather unobtrusive to the location--most other creatures would likely ignore it IMO.

If a DM does not kill your familiar in such a situation he is a being a Santa Clause.

Or they are being realistic? How often would an orc try to kill or even notice a spider crawling along wall or ceiling.

Unless the familiar has "natural predators" in the location, it should be relatively safe.

 

[Bill Zebub]

It’s interesting that some of the same people who claim the wizard is OP also decry anything the NPCs might do to counter the threat of magic as DMs punishing wizards.

In a world in which magic is common, and familiars are easy to get, you would think anti-familiar measures would be common place. As common as locks in a world full of thieves. Every evil mastermind would tell their minions “and make sure to pick up a familiar-hunting terrier from Target!” Except those novice masterminds who don’t realize minions need to be told everything.

I mostly skimmed the debate upthread about castle construction, but I think @Oofta had it about right.

There is an inherent contradiction between the claim that wizards are the terror of Faerun (or wherever) and the claim that attempts to counter that threat would not be commonplace.

 

[DND_Reborn]

In a world in which magic is common, and familiars are easy to get, you would think anti-familiar measures would be common place. As common as locks in a world full of thieves. Every evil mastermind would tell their minions “and make sure to pick up a familiar-hunting terrier from Target!” Except those novice masterminds who don’t realize minions need to be told everything.

(bold added)

This is the important clause here.

In my D&D worlds, for example, magic is most certainly not common! Wizards are rare, and not every one has a familiar. Most peasants would go their entire lives without personally meeting a wizard. They might see one, or know of one nearby, etc. but that is it.

Certainly, some locations, especially those with rival casters, would have countermeasures though.