[+] The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power - SPOILERS ALLOWED

[Paul Farquhar]

Heh. Isn't it funny.

Tolkien writes this story, and everyone still claims that the Valar are still good angels despite committing mass genocide and forcing the rest of the world to be less powerful.

Weiss and Hickman tell pretty much exactly the same story and people will shout until they are blue in the face that the gods of Krynn cannot possibly be good and they are all evil and everyone should abandon the gods...

I mean, it's basically just a retelling of the Atlantis myth in both cases. But, in one, we are supposed to think that all the Valar are still forces for good and whatnot, while in the other, despite following almost exactly the same story, we're supposed to think that the Gods of Krynn are all evil dicks.

Just something that struck me.

That Valar are not gods, they are not defined as "good", no one is required to worship them in order to get stuff, and they are based on the Aesir, who have always been portrayed as nuanced and flawed.

Tolkien leaves it to his readers to decide if the actions of the Valar are justified, he doesn't tell them what they should think.

 

[Hriston]

If ordinary elves can be made into orcs, could Galadriel conceivably be made into something more?

Good question. Maybe she's the Balrog of Moria.

More seriously though, I think the elves of Aman would be more resistant to being corrupted into orcs than the dark elves captured by Morgoth for that purpose in the ages of starlight.

ETA: The gnomes captured by Morgoth in the War of the Jewels during the First Age, for example, didn't become goblins. They were forced to work in his mines as slaves, however, and when they escaped or were freed, they were often mistrusted by other elves as spies, and sometimes not without good reason.

 

[Davies]

Since Tar-Palantir is still alive in the show

Or so we've been led to believe.

 

[Maxperson]

Which again, doesn't make any sense. Why would the elves create rings that could be controlled by the One Ring if the knew of the One Ring? It makes more sense if the Elven Rings are crafted first, and the One Ring is specifically made to dominate them.

They didn't know about it at first. Sauron crafted the One Ring in secret, just as the elves crafted the Three in secret. However, since the elven rings used the same knowledge in their making as the rest, the One Ring could dominate them like any other. That's why they were hidden and not worn until after Sauron was defeated by the Last Alliance of Elves and Men.

 

[Maxperson]

The three elven rings were different from the others and could not be dominated by the One Ring.

This is wrong. They could be dominated by it since they used the same knowledge in their crafting. Think of the knowledge as a back door that the One Ring could use to insert a control virus through. When Sauron put on the One, the elves felt it and took off their rings, which enraged Sauron and he declared war on them over it.

 

[Maxperson]

Yep - sounds about right - he couldn’t control the 3 because no-one was wearing them. And he failed to claim them because they were hidden and he couldn’t find them.

The rings weren't what he controlled per se. The One allowed him to control those wearing the rings as they were all linked to the master ring through the knowledge used in their crafting and the essence of himself that he infused into the One. When the elves took of their rings, he no longer had ability to control anyone and got really upset. So upset that he threw a tantrum and broke Eregion trying to get them.

 

[Nikosandros]

This is wrong. They could be dominated by it since they used the same knowledge in their crafting. Think of the knowledge as a back door that the One Ring could use to insert a control virus through. When Sauron put on the One, the elves felt it and took off their rings, which enraged Sauron and he declared war on them over it.

Upon going back to the sources, I must concede the point.

 

[Hussar]

That Valar are not gods, they are not defined as "good", no one is required to worship them in order to get stuff, and they are based on the Aesir, who have always been portrayed as nuanced and flawed.

Tolkien leaves it to his readers to decide if the actions of the Valar are justified, he doesn't tell them what they should think.

Well, that's because Middle Earth doesn't have clerics. But, I'm not sure I buy that they aren't meant to be gods. Taken from the Wiki entry:

The Valar were the fourteen Ainur who, after being molded of Eru's thought, entered Arda after its creation, to give order to the world and combat the new evils of Melkor. They had helped to begin the shaping of Arda through the music of Ilúvatar, and often referred to one another as "brother" or "sister". Each of the Ainur had added his or her own part to the music creating the world incarnate, save for Melkor, who at the time was counted as the strongest of them. His vision of what Arda should have been differed from Eru's, which led to his banishment and great rebellion that would cause most of the ills of the world of Arda.

It sounds an awful lot like these are gods (or at least close enough for government work) and are meant to be seen as good. Considering even the little I know about things, it was always pretty clear that the Valar oppose Melkor and are meant to be the "good guys".

My point anyway, is that the Numenor story and the Cataclysm of Krynn are basically both retellings of the Atlantis story. Yet, one gets the pass and the other does not. I just thought it was kinda funny.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

That Valar are not gods, they are not defined as "good", no one is required to worship them in order to get stuff, and they are based on the Aesir, who have always been portrayed as nuanced and flawed.

Is "hot mess" a nuance?

It's hard to decide whether the Norse or Greek gods are more like a Real Housewives TV show.

 

[Hriston]

Definitely. This is a TV show, the audience want to see BATTLES. There needs to be one before the end of the first season (and besides, we have seen glimpses in trailers).

The show seems on pace to have one battle scene per episode, and I agree a really big battle would be a good way to end the first season climactically.

I don't think Ar-Pharazôn's challenge to Sauron is the right fit, however, for a couple reasons. First, in the sources, it doesn't result in a battle. Sauron simply surrenders. Second, it parks Sauron in Númenor too early. The series is supposed to run five seasons, and I would assume the downfall of Númenor would come at the end of season three or four at the earliest, so unless the show is (a) going to spend a lot of time with Sauron in Númenor or (b) focus on the kingdoms in exile after the downfall, I don't think we'll see Sauron taken prisoner until maybe the end of season two.

For the end of season one, I'd say the War of the Elves and Sauron is a good fit. Sauron is beaten soundly by Gil-galad with help from Númenor (thanks to Galadriel's diplomacy) and is routed back to Mordor, but all the players (except Celebrimbor; his work is done) are still on the table, and Sauron now has the ring.