D&D 5E D&D Next playtest post mortem by Mike Mearls and Rodney Thompson. From seven years ago.

[Haplo781]

Let's break it down a bit more shall we?

What's wrong with my Cleric of Kord (god of Strength) using Strength as his casting ability? Would make a fair bit of sense, no?

Robin Hood is a perfect example of a charisma fighter - particularly the Erol Flynn version.

And, as far as "believability" goes, how is it possibly believable that my 8 Str 20 Dex archer is capable of accurately shooting a bow dealing gobs of damage when if we're going the "realistic" route, archers needed absolutely fantastic strength to draw those bows? Or, flip it around, my 18 Str 8 Dex great axe fighter is so skilled with swinging an axe that he is just as accurate and hits and deals just as much damage as that nimble 20 dex character using the same weapon?

The whole "I just can believe it" schtick is so overplayed and ludicrous on its face. We're right back to "I'll believe 6 impossible things before breakfast, but, that seventh, wow, that's just a doozy"

But, again, all this aside, I find it frankly astonishing that anyone would seriously argue that their preferences should be forced on other people in the group, let alone EVERYONE's table in the world. Just because someone doesn't find it plausible to have a Cha fighter means that people who don't even play at that table must not EVER play a Cha fighter?

Look, it's simple and it's the same thing that happened with ASI's. There are two options. The first option, someone gets to play the character they want to play but I don't. In the second option, everyone gets to play the character they want to play.

How in the world is option 1 even a consideration anymore?

Because option 2 doesn't let me piss in your Cheerios.

 

[James Gasik]

I think that’s the point though.

I get that folks want to play the fiction of beating someone in a knuckle brawler with brain power. It’s a cool and fun trope. I’m just not sure if D&D is the game to swap int for str or dex to accomplish that.

But, if it’s working, don’t listen to me.

I'm not even talking about swapping Int for another ability score. But making Intelligence useful to a warrior at all.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Did they make some mistakes? Sure. Everyone does. Was the majority of the playtest pointless or poorly run? No.

Saying they "during the entire time they were doing the D&D Next playtest, conducted shoddy survey" is insulting to everyone who likes what they did.

A playtest can have crappy polling and surveys and still be useful overall, despite the crappy polling and surveys.

 

[darjr]

I'm not even talking about swapping Int for another ability score. But making Intelligence useful to a warrior at all.

Someone was.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Obviously, they Lied.

I figured it was substantially more charitable to assume that the designers did not lie, and instead that this poster had a proposal of effective non-growth, than to assume that the designers did lie and that everything they've said should be treated as questionable until proven otherwise...

And yes, I do hold Higher level HP Bloat in contempt because it is something that has led to mechanical scaling issues in every WotC edition of D&D which they have consistently failed to properly address. In spite of all their vaunted "playtesting".

If you use the MM3 math, it really isn't that big a deal in 4e. Yes, things have a fair amount of HP in Epic tier. It's not inherently "bloat."

Someone was.

Technically, I believe it was Charisma, but yes.

 

[darjr]

I figured it was substantially more charitable to assume that the designers did not lie, and instead that this poster had a proposal of effective non-growth, than to assume that the designers did lie and that everything they've said should be treated as questionable until proven otherwise...


If you use the MM3 math, it really isn't that big a deal in 4e. Yes, things have a fair amount of HP in Epic tier. It's not inherently "bloat."


Technically, I believe it was Charisma, but yes.

This post.

I have yet to see a pro wrestler that was not hugely muscled compared to a normal person. Again ... it's not that intelligence can't be useful ... it's this theory that you could dump strength and dex but use intelligence alone (actually it was charisma) for all your attacks and damage.

There is no common fiction or visual that supports that. Could there be a fighting style or feat that grants you some benefit from other abilities such as intelligence? Sure.

But I don't want a game where charisma can be used in place of strength for a guy swinging a halberd. If you do, more power to you.

Granted he was referring to the charisma post but I can’t let things go. Apparently.

Apologies for the aside.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I have yet to see a pro wrestler that was not hugely muscled compared to a normal person.

I said up thread light wight MMA fighters are under 150lbs. between 120-140... that is HALF of a 300lbs line backer

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'll have to take your word for it, WWE is a niche and hardly makes a dent in popular culture. If people do think of professional wrestlers they think Dwayne Jonson if anything.

look at that, don't like the argument so you change the criteria

 

[James Gasik]

I'm not sure why it would have to be a fighting style or feat that lets you use Intelligence. Why can't we just say "Int does X for warrior types, take it or leave it?".

I look at it as the same kind of decision to not have a high Dexterity and wear Heavy Armor. So we're ok with people saying "eh, I don't really need Dexterity to be effective" but somehow a world where people say "eh, there are some advantages to Intelligence, but I don't really need it to be effective"?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I'd say that in fiction, it's pretty rare to have a complete weakling winning a battle of arms through pure intellect or charisma. What you do see are those who are moderately fit using their brains to win, by taking advantage of their opponents' weaknesses.

right and even an 8 str hero (the weakest a default array can start) is 8x15 (120lbs) carry all day and 8x30 lift (240lbs) so it is not possible to play a 'weak' character

That said, I still think it would be better to decouple core combat ability from ability scores. One might gate some styles behind ability scores (e.g. fencer needing some Dexterity, great weapon style needing Strength, and archery needing Wisdom) but not the actual attack and damage bonus.

if we say a 'weak' 100lbs person can't use Int or Wis becuse they are too weak, lets say he has a str 5, he can carry 75lbs all day no issue and lift a dead lift 150lbs (1 1/2 times his body weight)