D&D 5E The Decrease in Desire for Magic in D&D

[Fanaelialae]

I disagree.

I want D&D BBEG fights at the end of the dungeon to be the big action hero climax fight where the PCs pull out their best moves as it comes down to the wire, not one where the heroes can barely swing a sword due to death spiraling.

I want heroes hp to be whacked down a lot in that climax fight and then they still pull out a win TKO, not to be smacked around by the BBEG then have the numbers of death spiral show them they have no chance.

Technically, these are not mutually exclusive within the context of the game. In the context of any given campaign, obviously, they are.

The default could be that HP loss doesn't have penalties. Which seems reasonable due to tradition.

There could be an optional Heroic Death Spiral rule, wherein the closer your character is to death the stronger they are.

There could also be an optional Gritty Death Spiral rule, wherein your character is weaker the closer to death they are.

Slap on a warning that Heroic will make encounters easier while Gritty will make them harder (so DMs know to adjust accordingly) and done.

 

[Voadam]

I think it would make a neat option where you got a list of 20 different combat maneuver options and whatever you attack rolled you could have the option of doing the listed maneuver instead of/in addition to damage, so that you opportunistically could take advantage of various situations that abstractly came up in the combat.

I want to trip this guy if I can, but he rarely makes a misstep. Oh he overextended his swing though! Here's my chance to knock his sword away!

It would be a little like the 2e PH unarmed/martial arts tables.

 

[Lanefan]

I disagree.

I want D&D BBEG fights at the end of the dungeon to be the big action hero climax fight where the PCs pull out their best moves as it comes down to the wire, not one where the heroes can barely swing a sword due to death spiraling.

Pull out those best moves before it comes down to the wire, then. Lead with them. Get the BBEG into its own death spiral before it gets you into yours; and if the BBEG gets lucky and you can't hurt it fast, have a getaway plan. Make not getting damaged an important part of your attack plan, rather than just wading in and trading blows. Etc.

I want heroes hp to be whacked down a lot in that climax fight and then they still pull out a win TKO, not to be smacked around by the BBEG then have the numbers of death spiral show them they have no chance.

Where I'd rather every hit point count, not just the last one.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Pull out those best moves before it comes down to the wire, then. Lead with them. Get the BBEG into its own death spiral before it gets you into yours; and if the BBEG gets lucky and you can't hurt it fast, have a getaway plan. Make not getting damaged an important part of your attack plan, rather than just wading in and trading blows. Etc.

Where I'd rather every hit point count, not just the last one.

I'm of two minds here. On the plus side, I like the realism (earth realism at least, though injuries turning into reduced capabilities doesn't sound that farfetched for most fantasy settings) of the death spiral.

But, it sounds deeply unfun from a game perspective. You start winning, and then win harder or you start losing and then lose harder. Perhaps it's something you learn to love in play.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'm of two minds here. On the plus side, I like the realism (earth realism at least, though injuries turning into reduced capabilities doesn't sound that farfetched for most fantasy settings) of the death spiral.

But, it sounds deeply unfun from a game perspective. You start winning, and then win harder or you start losing and then lose harder. Perhaps it's something you learn to love in play.

Studies on combat injuries also show that short-term (i.e. within the context of one combat) its not as realistic as people think it is, because of the effects of adrenaline on people (i.e., first thing adrenaline does is make you less effective at a lot of things out of the gate, but then papers over the effects of a lot of injuries until it wears off--including some you'd think were beyond its scope.

 

[Voadam]

Pull out those best moves before it comes down to the wire, then. Lead with them. Get the BBEG into its own death spiral before it gets you into yours; and if the BBEG gets lucky and you can't hurt it fast, have a getaway plan. Make not getting damaged an important part of your attack plan, rather than just wading in and trading blows. Etc.

Where I'd rather every hit point count, not just the last one.

Different tastes.

For the story and play experience I want, the PCs should be in involved combats where they get hit and hurt and encumbered by interesting effects they have to deal with, but not crippled and spiraling when that happens.

Novaing round one makes tactical sense, more so with death spirals, but I prefer the combat to have more sustained back and forth. I find particularly appealing the mechanics of Kamigakari God Hunters where depending on rolls and decisions it can potentially take multiple combat rounds of doing lesser but still active combat moves to build up to a character's biggest Voltron move.

 

[Fanaelialae]

If one is trying to replicate the chaotic fog of war this is actually a very good way to do it. Yes you have these various moves and abilities that you know how to do, but you never know when or if an opportunity is going to arise to use any one of them in any given battle.

Result: no, you can't go in to a fight specifically intending to trip your foe; but you know you've always got that ability in your back pocket and if the chance comes up to use it (let's say e.g. you can only trip if your foe misses on a melee attack against you) that foe's going down.

My main issue with that is that the fighter should be the class least impacted by the fog of war. Not the only class that gets lost in the chaotic fog of war.

 

[Voadam]

I'm of two minds here. On the plus side, I like the realism (earth realism at least, though injuries turning into reduced capabilities doesn't sound that farfetched for most fantasy settings) of the death spiral.

But, it sounds deeply unfun from a game perspective. You start winning, and then win harder or you start losing and then lose harder. Perhaps it's something you learn to love in play.

Or you work up workarounds.

Shadowrun has pain editor cybetech.

Vampire the Masquerade has frenzying.

My favorite phrase when playing my brujah with the berseker advantage was "I ride the wave" to go into frenzy and ignore death spiral wound penalties.

 

[Garthanos]

To add to list one, above:

--- Enemy has just missed User with a melee attack

that is on some maneuvers but its treated as more of a cosmetic limit since it is pretty easy to arrange... though it can have a very real impact if enemies decide to stop attacking you in favor of other allies (you may or may not want) or in that it may mess with focus fire tactics.

--- Enemy has just hit User with a melee attack

Revenge instead of Riposte that is a good limit better than the missed one, since you generally optimize for them to miss and its a much lower chance of occuring.

--- Enemy and User have been fighting for more than four continuous rounds (i.e. gaining familiarity with the foe's moves etc.)

akin to the bloodied idea...

--- A third party joins (or leaves) the Enemy-User fight (i.e. a distraction)

quite situational indeed I like the particularly for joins as it means the participants may need to buff up at that point

--- One or both of Enemy or User are hit by missile fire or AoE damage

hmmmm not something you want to happen either.

 

[James Gasik]

Hot take warning.....

Indeed; and that's a significant problem now and, to a slightly lesser extent, always has been.

Thing is, any means of solving it that's the least bit penalizing to characters who are running low on h.p. will immediately draw widespread howls of protest in which the words "death spiral" will figure prominently.

And yet, a death spiral is - or should be - the whole damn point! The more hurt or fatigued you are, the less effective you are. Don't want to get into a potential death spiral? Then don't lose the hit points in the first place.

Far too often it seems the only hit point anyone cares about is the one that takes them from +1 to 0. Ideally, every hit point should have importance, even the one that takes you from full to one less than full.

It's not like you can prevent taking hit point damage while adventuring, especially if you're a melee character. You kind of sort of need to be standing next to bad guys to do your work. If there were penalties for taking hit point damage, who would want to be a melee character? Everyone would be ranged specialists trying to use crowd control spells and summoned minions to take melee damage.

Twilight Clerics would probably replace all other healing classes, I suppose.