D&D 5E (2024) There needs to be a 4th spell list.

[Horwath]

IMHO, there only needs to be one spell list.

Spells.

all casters have access to all spells.

put spells know at sorcerer level -1 spell.

every subclass gets 2 spells know for each level from cantrips to 5th level.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

IMHO, there only needs to be one spell list.

Spells.

all casters have access to all spells.

put spells know at sorcerer level -1 spell.

every subclass gets 2 spells know for each level from cantrips to 5th level.

No. That is too much.

 

[Marandahir]

No. That is too much.

Agreed - that creates options paralysis. Might as well play GURPS…

 

[Horwath]

Agreed - that creates options paralysis. Might as well play GURPS…

shush!
Slowly...

 

[DEFCON 1]

As a reminder... if there are any spells that Bards cannot have access to (without using their Magical Secrets) due to this new design idea of spell groups (rather than individual spell lists per class)... make sure you bang that gong HARD on the surveys. They really need to know if there are so-called "iconic" Bard spells that they can't get anymore so that perhaps they go back to individual class spell lists.

And this is true across the board for any of the classes-- if/when the Sorcerer gets released and they only are given access to a couple of the Arcane schools (like Abjuration, Divination, Evocation, and Transmutation), all the Sorcerer stands need to make sure to let them know that's not an acceptable condensation.

If no one mentions in the Surveys that they think classes are missing spells due to the spell group / spell school divisions... WotC will never try going back to the old way to see if that's more popular.

 

[Marandahir]

I definitely think they see the healing spells as auto-prepared is a feature, not a bug - that it's built in there to make sure that Bards will fill that healer role for the party without you accidentally ending up with a bunch of spells that do you no good when your friend is bleeding out and the party lacks a Cleric, Paladin, or Druid.

But I'd note that these are a replacement for Songs of Rest (even called Songs of RESToration) - so yeah, while swapped a Bard-unique healing feature for auto-preparing healing spells, it feels like a net-loss because Bards could have prepped those healing spells previously if they wanted, or else could have just healed with Songs of Rest and prepped Speak with Animals, instead…

I would note that Bards DO get spells like Speak with Animals later on - via Magical Secrets. But 11th level is way too late. College of Lore used to provide early access to Magical Secrets, but I presume they wanted to emphasise the knowledge and cunning part of Lore Bards over just making them be better at what Bards already do (that's now really the College of Eloquence, anyway). And also, the wider spell lists and the ability to draw any spell from the spell list at the end of the LR means that Magical Secrets is far more powerful than when it just let you add a few more Spells known without easy swapping out.

If a Bard subclass focused on Speak with Animals or other iconic spells - perhaps a "Primal Skald" type Bard a la that one 4th Edition Paragon Path - then I think I could handle that loss for other subclassed Bards until 11th level. But I'm sure there are plenty of folks who dislike the loss of versatility there. For example, One D&D's College of Spirits Bard better darn have access to Speak with Dead from an early level. Give it as a level 3 subclass feature?

 

[Aldarc]

College of Lore used to provide early access to Magical Secrets, but I presume they wanted to emphasise the knowledge and cunning part of Lore Bards over just making them be better at what Bards already do (that's now really the College of Eloquence, anyway). And also, the wider spell lists and the ability to draw any spell from the spell list at the end of the LR means that Magical Secrets is far more powerful than when it just let you add a few more Spells known without easy swapping out.

Couldn't they give the Lore Bard a 6th level Magical Secrets that only expands their choices into the Arcane spell list outside of their restricted schools of magic?

 

[Marandahir]

Couldn't they give the Lore Bard a 6th level Magical Secrets that only expands their choices into the Arcane spell list outside of their restricted schools of magic?

It was always weird that Lord Bard got a feature EARLY.

But if it was just arcane spells, I could easily see them just say, "you can now prepare Arcane spells of any spell school" and not call it Magical Secrets. Perhaps lean into the term Arcane, which essentially means Magical Secrets anyway?

 

[Amrûnril]

I'm not really a fan of it. PF2 has demonstrated that one of the major benefits to this system is that when you adding new spells to the game, you are really only worried about adding spells to about 4 spell lists that are shared between classes. That makes it easier to manage than having to determine whether each class gets access to a spell or not and then writing it out for each. That likewise helps reduce word count and redundant layout. This also makes it easier when adding new classes or options to the game. You can point them to the appropriate spell list rather than having to make a unique for the class.

Yes, having shared lists is slightly easier than having unique ones (very slightly, I'd argue). But a bit of extra effort in spell list creation is well worth it if it allows for more distinctive and thematic classes. Especially since the majority of that work is already done and the resulting system works well.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No. Arcane, divine and primal are fine.
Bards get a small selection of divine spells that are always prepared. I think they could also get the few low level primal spells they just lost back with a similar feature.
Maxbe give a choice of divine or primal when chosing the level 2 feature.

I do however have the feeling they want to protect the ranger niche a bit more.

Coming from 2e, the bard somehow feels more bardy to me as in 2014 5e.

1DD Ranger has a niche?