D&D (2024) Please focus on concept, not numbers.

[Stalker0]

I'll disagree with the premise. Yes I do think feedback on the concept is important, and it should be called out.

But just because a number can be changed doesn't mean its immune from critique, afterall part of the job in the playtest is to tell the designers "this thing looks like weak crap". Especially this early in the playtest, its great for the designers to update the numbers as we go, and then we can hit that sweet spot without waiting till the last minute.

 

[Minigiant]

I even support you on the lack of spice. But in the case of the ranger it is all: "conjure barrage is a bad spell, because it does not do enough damage as a level 3 spell [commentary: which is out of question, if you compare it to benchmark spells] so please keep the old multiattack feature [which is also totally underpowered and totally useless]"

But this is a criticism of the concept. It's a concept of numbers.

Conjure Barrage is too weak. And you can't buff it that because it is designed to match with 3rd level spells and Bard and Druids can get it as full casters.

You'd have to rewrite the spell, buff it, and remove it from the Primal list. All numbers criticism

 

[Zardnaar]

No. It is not. Tweaking numbers is easy.

That's what they said last time, left feed back indicating that and they still screwed it up.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

That's what they said last time, left feed back indicating that and they still screwed it up.

I did not say, we should be quiet about numbers. But we should not have numbers cloud or vision.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

But this is a criticism of the concept. It's a concept of numbers.

Conjure Barrage is too weak. And you can't buff it that because it is designed to match with 3rd level spells and Bard and Druids can get it as full casters.

You'd have to rewrite the spell, buff it, and remove it from the Primal list. All numbers criticism

Thing is: conjure barrage does exactly NOT compete with 3rd level spells. That is the core of the problem.

Edit: and why is removing a spell from a list a number problem. I fail to see your logic here.

 

[Minigiant]

Edit: and why is removing a spell from a list a number problem. I fail to see your logic here.

Because if it is one the list the Bard and Druid get it at earlier levels and more slots to churn throug it. If you buff it, you give them a stronger spell that they can do more with.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Because if it is one the list the Bard and Druid get it at earlier levels and more slots to churn throug it. If you buff it, you give them a stronger spell that they can do more with.

Ok. So you think spells should be balanced by who gets it and not level?

I strongly disagree here. I think this was the best thing of making bard a full caster. No more having spells on different levels for different classes.

Compare conjure barrage with any level 3 cleric or bard spell that does damage. You notice, that it just dows not keep up, even when taking the big area into account.

Thunderwave upcast to level 3 does 4d8 damage and pushes back.

Call lightning does 3d10 damage over and over again... If you compare it to fireball, one can just cry...

 

[Minigiant]

Ok. So you think spells should be balanced by who gets it and not level?

I strongly disagree here. I think this was the best thing of making bard a full caster. No more having spells on different levels for different classes.

Compare conjure barrage with any level 3 cleric or bard spell that does damage. You notice, that it just dows not keep up, even when taking the big area into account.

Thunderwave upcast to level 3 does 4d8 damage and pushes back.

Call lightning does 3d10 damage over and over again... If you compare it to fireball, one can just cry...

My point is this:
What happens if WOTC buffs conjure barrage.
Druid: I cast Conjure Barrage with one of my 3 level 3 slots for 6d8 damage. I R Best Archer.

Same with smite spells in the Divine spell list.
Cleric: Oh. You're Forcing me to prepare 4 1st level spells? Ooo. Searing Smite. I have nothing to do with that spell slot. Smite. Smite.

Full casters and Half casters sharing lists is a problem we recognized in 2000. But sure lets relive history.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

My point is this:
What happens if WOTC buffs conjure barrage.
Druid: I cast Conjure Barrage with one of my 3 level 3 slots for 6d8 damage. I R Best Archer.

Same with smite spells in the Divine spell list.
Cleric: Oh. You're Forcing me to prepare 4 1st level spells? Ooo. Searing Smite. I have nothing to do with that spell slot. Smite. Smite.

Full casters and Half casters sharing lists is a problem we recognized in 2000. But sure lets relive history.

Did I say buff to 6d8?
I guess not...

Just 4d8 would probably do it, 5d8 at worst. It is not even magical damage, if I remember correctly.

Full casters and half casters sharing a list actually works well enough.
It works way better than having the same spells on different lists.

On that note, you think ranger needs an underpowered spell that does not even compare with spells of full casters at the same level? That is somewhat backwards?

Settle for a power level on spells and accept that half casters use their spells either vs weaker foes or use buff spells to enhance their other abilities.

On that nore, I'd rather have a (concentration) spell that adds some area damage for every arrow they shoot for the next minute or so.

This would not increase peak damage, but allows clearing the field faster.
For melee, they could have a whirlwind

I would not object spending a spell slot to replace one or both attack of their attack sequence with a whirlwind or a volley (dex save for half). This would play nice with ranger abilities, the weapon he uses and spell slots as ressource, which seems to replace prof bonus per day in some cases.

 

[Minigiant]

Full casters and half casters sharing a list actually works well enough.
It works way better than having the same spells on different lists.

We don't know this. The playtest is only 4 days old. I doubt anyone has tried it in play.
The idea failed in 3rd edition.

On that note, you think ranger needs an underpowered spell that does not even compare with spells of full casters at the same level? That is somewhat backwards?

I'm saying that a class with 4/3/3/3/2 slots can deal more damage with conjure barrage more times than one with 4/3/2.
If you combine the druid and ranger spell list, the only difference between their magic is numbers.

Settle for a power level on spells and accept that half casters use their spells either vs weaker foes or use buff spells to enhance their other abilities.

The point is the power progression between spell levels means a half caster cannot do the first one unless you boost damage. If you boost damage,you are boosting full caster damage.

So you have to design ranger spells to boost ranger's numbers without boosting druid/bard/sorcerer's numbers as well.