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D&D (2024) Bard Playtest discussion

shadowoflameth

Adventurer
I did forget that bard's got it at 14th, I was actually coming back to correct that when I saw you pointed it out.

But still, with the new way Magical Secrets works, if the Lore bard got a third instance of it, then Bards would just be able to effectively cast any spell in the game. I don't think that is really something we actually want to happen, so I can understand why they cut it.

Maybe, if people really feel Lore Bard needs more spells, it could be that they can prepare an additional two spells, or swap spells, but those feel like mage features, not bard features.
Agree, and I think two instances gives them potentially that ability as it is. If they don't limit Magic Secrets, and especially if all casters become know it alls who prepare a few, then what space will be left for the wizard who's strength is being able to learn new ones (or create them). I would suggest that Magical Secrets let the bard learn two spells of a chosen school from one of the three groups. It would still be potent but minimize encroaching on other classes space and minimize munchkin builds even if they have the ability to change their choices.
 

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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The UA Bard access to spells seems motivated by the limited access in the PH being a pain point, plus by a new definition of what it means to be an Expert who is a "polymath".

I doubt the non-Expert Wizard will have this fluid access to the spell list. On the other hand, I suspect the Wizard to have features to enhance spellcasting effects.
None of that makes it make sense. Arcane spells are not just floating around the ether for bards to pluck out of nothing at their whim.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Yes, like I said. Are you going to address any other point than the one I conceded? Or are you saying that if it game doesn't force you to care, it cannot possibly matter?
I'm saying it can only matter subjectively, at individual tables. That's can be very important, but says nothing about the game as a whole or about what's in the books.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Common enough to be a playable race. Also, really? Orcs, the most iconic of villains? And you want to play the "they might not be common" card? They are stock humanoids.
100%. I've been in homebrew settings where they don't even exist. They also didn't exist on Athas. They might not in fact be common in any particular game.
Are you serious right now? Elf is in the PHB. Human is in the PHB. Knowing that they don't have any R's, I's or V's is not metagaming. Heck, you can't even use the "how common are they" because the answer to how common humans is is "Yes". They are the single most common creature in the entire game.
Way to ignore the other three races you lumped in with humans and elves. Very telling that. ;)

As for common. They too might not even be in any given game. Or might be exceptionally rare and not a PC race.
I don't know Max, why might I assume a creauture made of MAGMA (a fluid) might be difficult to smash or cut. I'll also go out further on a limb and guess a creature made of MAGMA might not burn. Wild guess, but it seems kind of logical.
Magma is a very thick fluid. It would seem to me like a mace might just scoop a large swath of the body out and flick it away doing extra damage.
And they eat. They are like Jellyfish. They do have a functioning digestive system. Skeletons don't. Zombies don't. Animated suits of armor don't.
So now you're limiting it to undead?
Also, let's say that my character assumes oozes ARE immune to poison. Is that meta-gaming? Am I going to get called out for not using poison on a creature I incorrectly assume is immune to it?
No. Nor is every case of assuming something that is true a case of metagaming. As I said, if it makes sense for the PC to make that assumption, that's fine. If you have to look for a weak justification, you've walked into metagaming territory.
Right, so when the PCs learn it once, they learn it forever. How useful is an ability that is only needed once? We generally call that "niche" right?
Once per type of monster isn't niche. Sure, if you could only use it once in your PCs life on one monster, that would be niche. DMs use many, many different kinds of monsters, though, so even if you don't personally like it, it will be very useful.
Why would someone assume that a Giant living in the Tundra and covered in ice is going to be the same as a giant living underwater and throwing lightning bolts? Hey, I bet the guy who can summon and throw lighting as just a natural part of his existence doesn't take full lightning damage.
You mean that giant wizard?
Also, they may not be demons, but they are extraplanar beings of pure evil, formed in the lower planes. That seems like a really similiar thing. Kind of like how orcs and goblins and humans and elves are all humanoids from the material plane, and all lack natural resistance to fire, cold, and lightning.
So creatures that are from three wildly different planes are like creatures who are all from the same plane?
Also, what do you mean that assuming can get me in trouble? Is attacking a Demon with a silver weapon going to cause me to explode? No, it just... won't be as effective as I thought. Oh no! That would mean... well, since I had to go and silver my weapons I probably didn't have access to magic weapons. So at worst that just means I spent money on an upgrade that doesn't help. How is this bad? I guess I could have spent the money on something else, but it wouldn't have been anything that helped in the fight.
Assuming incorrectly can bite you in the rear. I wasn't limiting that statement to demons and silver weapons.
What counts as a good in-character reason then?
It varies. It could be as simple as something in your background about growing up near the troll moors or an uncle who was a troll hunter. It's very probable that he would know about troll regeneration and what to do about it.
Ah, so you want to cheat. If an ability says that it tells you Vulnerabilities, then it doesn't mean you get to learn their special traits. It means you get to learn their Vulnerabilities. Of which trolls have none.
I'm the DM. I can't cheat. If I want to allow the troll's vulnerability to fire and acid to be revealed by a power that informs a PC what a monster's vulnerabilities are, I can.
If you want to have an ability that does tell you their special abilities then we are talking about something completely different. I've actually advocated for the Ranger's new Hunter's Lore ability to basically give the player the monster's statblock. Learning AC, HP, special abilities, average damage, Vulnerabilities, resistances and immunities IS actually useful, because that information changes and is useful every fight.
AC, HP and average damage are not in-fiction things for a PC to learn. Those are OOC things. Special abilities, vulnerabilities, resistances and immunities are.
 

Yaarel

Hurra for syttende mai!
None of that makes it make sense. Arcane spells are not just floating around the ether for bards to pluck out of nothing at their whim.
Actually, their "whim" is precisely how Bards do magic. They make up songs. Their magic is artistic creativity.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Actually, their "whim" is precisely how Bards do magic.
No. No it's not and it never has been. You're inventing stuff now. They started off with actual druid and no wizard levels. Then moved to arcane casters with wizard spells and a spell book in 2e. Then in 3e were arcane casters that were like sorcerers, but still had a limited selection and the same with 5e. Maybe you're thinking of the Spellsinger series of novels that were not D&D.
They make up songs.
Yes they do. They just don't make up magical spells on a whim.
 

Yaarel

Hurra for syttende mai!
Yes they do. They just don't make up magical spells on a whim.
2014 Players Handbook: "The Bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain."

When a Bard speaks or sings, the verse is itself magical.

Making up a new song or a new poem is making up a new magic.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
2014 Players Handbook: "The Bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain."
Yes. Otherwise known as Bardic Inspiration, Song of Rest, Countercharm, etc. You're stretching things so thin with your explanation that the Martian atmosphere is like gelatin in comparison.
When a Bard speaks or sings, the verse is itself magical.

Making up a new song or a new poem is making up a new magic.
Not in any edition of D&D or in any way that makes sense to just be able to whim up whatever spell they feel like. I sincerely enough D&D fans tell WotC how bad this idea of theirs truly is.
 

Micah Sweet

Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
2014 Players Handbook: "The Bard is a master of song, speech, and the magic they contain."

When a Bard speaks or sings, the verse is itself magical.

Making up a new song or a new poem is making up a new magic.
In what way is that reflected mechanically, in any edition?
 

Yaarel

Hurra for syttende mai!
In what way is that reflected mechanically, in any edition?
In 5e, the songs or poems are inherently magical.

The satire of Cutting Words is different each time, depending on who the target of the satire is. Meanwhile Inspiration generally is versatile and impromptu. Each Bard makes up their own songs or poems for it.

I find the requirement of a musical instrument as a Spell Focus to be highly problematic for certain Bard character concepts that lack an instrument. Nevertheless, this too emphasizes how it is the song itself that is the source of magic. It can be any instrument. The instrument itself doesnt matter. It is the artistic creativity of the Bard oneself − the song and speech − that causes the magic to happen.



2014 Players Handbook

"
BARD
SPELLCASTING
You have learned to reshape the fabric of reality in harmony with your wishes and music.

"

Bard magic is whim. It depends on the wishes of the Bard. The Bard actualizes ones personal wishes by means of ones personal music and poetry.
 

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