D&D 5E Heteroglossia and D&D: Why D&D Speaks in a Multiplicity of Playing Styles
FrogReaver
As long as i get to be the frog
How would one show a Corolla is well designed? What evidence would you cite? I would cite comparative sales/popularity, comparative reliability ratings, comparative price, and any important awards it won.
How would one show a BMW is well designed? I'd primarily look at comparative technical specs.
Is D&D 5e the Corolla or the BMW?
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
I am not a fan of the car analogy. It assumes that different games are substitutes. That one might get you there faster, but that the other is more reliable. That's not how this fundamentally works. Different games get you to different destinations.
To me, it seems that whether or not one is interested in the technical specs of a car, there are relatively objective measures for its performance: reliability in general, reliability relative to price, safety rating, etc. By any measure of these things, Toyota has made some good cars. The Corolla is one of them.
RPGs aren't comparable. They're not tools used to perform a particular function with many objective measures of whether or not that function is being performed well in general, or well relative to a price. (Contrast: we could usefully compare dice to cars, or dry erase mats to cars.)
RPGs aren't comparable. They're not tools used to perform a particular function with many objective measures of whether or not that function is being performed well in general, or well relative to a price. (Contrast: we could usefully compare dice to cars, or dry erase mats to cars.)
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
That depends on your perspective. Aren’t all games ultimately taking their players to a good time?
Thomas Shey
Legend
That would work if everyone's sense of what makes a good time was the same. But its more like "taking to a person's favorite vacation spot"; there may be many overlaps, but there's also going to be quite a bit of variety.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him)
As there would be taking different sorts of car. A trip to a good time is going to be different in a convertible, a sports car, a Yugo...
It seems a bit odd to me to pick apart one analogy vs another since everyone's got a different perspective on what's going on.
Hussar
Legend
Comparative sales doesn't really apply to well designed, because you have to detail the reason for a particular design. The statement must always be "well designed TO ((Insert design goal here))". That's the problem. People want to skip over the detail part because that's harder to articulate and requires actual knowledge rather than just "Well because I like it".
And, to take it further, since you need to detail the goal then even "have a good time" isn't specific enough. I can have a good time sitting on the couch alone with a cat. Errrr, you know what I mean.
But, if you mean "have a good time creating a shared story with each participant sharing as equally as possible input into that story" then you absolutely can compare one game to another. By the same token, if the goal is to have a good time rolling dice with beer and pretzels, then, probably something like D&D is better designed for that goal than something like My Life with Master or any GURPS product (since GURPS requires SO much rules and involves so much detail that casual play just isn't any fun).
That's the whole point about these discussions. No one ever defines the design goals and thus their design parameters are unknowable.
Oofta
Legend
How else are you going to judge quality other than by subjective opinion? You, stating that your opinion is objective and above reproach? The collective opinions of a dozen or so posters on this forum that want change, but frequently completely incompatible change?
I argue against changing the game in ways I would not want. That's kind of the point of having an opinion. I also believe that 5E is on the right track for appealing to a wide audience as evidenced by double digit growth for nearly a decade. Maybe I'm wrong about the latter but I don't see why people would want dramatic changes to a game that continues to work for a whole lot of people. The goal of selling a product is to have it grow and make a profit. Why would WOTC not continue doing what has repeatedly exceeded expectation?
People keep talking about "quality" as if it even means the same things to all people. I don't think it does. I think different people put value on different qualities. We probably share some qualities that we think are important. Things like does the text have minimal grammatical errors or misspellings, is it reasonably easy to read and follow. Some people probably have qualities that they care about that honestly I don't see as a big deal like how well their index is organized. I don't remember the last time I looked up anything in the index, so that last quality doesn't matter much to me.
The qualities I value such as streamlined play and a light touch for out of combat rules may be the opposite qualities someone else wants. But it all comes down to personal preference and what the person wants out of the game. An analogy would be cars. Some people value the qualities of speed and handling over reliability so they buy a BMW. Other people value safety so they buy a Volvo. Some cars don't meet minimum qualities for basic competence like Yugo so they go out of business. Some people buy pickup trucks to go to the mall which I don't understand.
No game is going to work for everyone. I empathize with people that can't get the game to work for them but after making suggestions for house rules or 3PP supplements what else is there to say? Agree we should change the game to something I would not want to play? So if you want to discuss specific issues, no problem. But I'm going to continue to state my preferences on what I like and what I believe contributes to the ongoing success of the game based on interactions I've had with people at various tables over the decades.
clearstream
(He, Him)
This reminded me of Dworkin's take on Law. He says in one place "Law is an interpretive concept. Judges should decide what the law is by interpreting the practice off other judges deciding what the law is. General theories of law, for us, are general interpretations of our own judicial practice." Later he offers a different perspective "Law's empire is defined by attitude, not territory or power or process."And that's why I make essays like this. Because understanding why D&D is deigned the way it is ... understanding the decisions that go into it, understanding what makes it popular ... that's interesting!
To make a game that appeals to a few people- to make a game that is the bestest and greatest game ever for a small group of people for a short period of time ... that's not easy, but it's not hard either. But once you have to start making compromises to your own vision ... once you realize that this is a game that has to be in a conversation with both the future and the past, a game that has to appeal to both the hardcore crunch and the hardcore lore people, a game that has to be mini-ready AND playable as ToTM, a game that has to have relatively complete rules but also be easily hackable ... that makes for fascinating design!
To me, that's the interesting conversation that a lot of people don't want to have. I hear you when you write, And then you have edition wars and D&D players who fight even more than they do about other systems. Yeah, they do. And it sucks. Because fandom has a toxic side. But that's the whole thing- D&D is the only system that has people arguing about editions, about rules, that has people (like me) posting histories of the use of the scimitar for the druid class; it is a game and an ecosystem. Which is why I keep getting back to the point that it's not just about the system. There are plenty of games out there that provide better and bespoke systems for certain uses, but to concentrate on the rules alone, to ignore the history, the community, the norms, the massive amount of homebrew and 3PP, the lore, the ... the EVERYTHING associated with D&D? When you do that, you miss what D&D is.
IMO. And it is my opinion because I've written a fair amount about the topic.
The space you characterise as negative is not empty. It is filled with attitudes that we have learned, frameworks for meaning, and of course meanings, and I think what the 5e game text does so successfully is remind us of that attitude. The attitude we have when setting out to play D&D. This is indeed not found soley in the words on the page. One has to see both beyond them, and see how they bring what is beyond them into our grasp.
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